El Mejor MBT Occidental
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pagano
- Coronel
- Mensajes: 3893
- Registrado: 21 Feb 2003, 17:32
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Springfield
- Coronel
- Mensajes: 3415
- Registrado: 14 Mar 2003, 18:01
- Ubicación: Madrid
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Springfield
- Coronel
- Mensajes: 3415
- Registrado: 14 Mar 2003, 18:01
- Ubicación: Madrid
El enlace a la página de Oto-Melara, directamente al Ariete:
http://www.otomelara.it/products/product.asp?pid=48
Saludos
http://www.otomelara.it/products/product.asp?pid=48
Saludos
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tyr de asgard
- Comandante
- Mensajes: 1863
- Registrado: 07 Dic 2003, 23:31
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Xammar
- General de Brigada
- Mensajes: 4302
- Registrado: 09 Feb 2003, 17:41
Un poco mas de luz sobre el Programa chino, MBT Tipo 98/G.
Tipo 98 Basico
http://www.jed.simonides.org/tanks/tango-type/type-98_series/type-98g/type98g_001.jpg
El avanzado Tipo-98G
Development origin and background:
At the end of 1970, type-122 medium tank(experimental type) was aborted after 3 years of development due to technical bottleneck, in Feb. 1977, work on the new generation tank initiated, in april 1978, development goals were set, with t-72 as primary combat target. in march 1979, factory 617 and institute 201 developed the new type 1224 experimental chassis installed with MB8v331TC41 imported from germany. later, another two were developed, type-1226 with the 8V165(763kw, 1,000hp) diesel engine by factory 636 and type-1226F2 with the 12V150(763kw, 1,000hp) made by factory 616. all three prototype were armed with 120mm smoothbore, welded turret and ammunition storage was placed at the rear of the turret, many design philosophy of the german Leo2 were adopted.
after the designation of type-80 as the "second generation tank" in 1981, a division in design thinking of the "third generation tank" emerged with one group arguing for a design based on t-72, with 3 crew, 125mm gun, autoloader, and another group arguing for a merkava-styled design with front located power pack, 120mm gun, semi-automatic loader, high output diesel or gas turbine engine. this division caused a temporary delay in the project. in july 1984, the design was settled on a t-72-like configuration. in summer of 1986, the program was submitted to the state council and central military committee, in the same year, it was approved and incorporated in the major weapon development program of the seventh five-year plan.
in spring, 1989, formal contract was sighed with norinco for the "third generation tank". in
the beginning of the following year, factory 617 produced the first prototype for testing purpose. in 1991, its technical perimeter was raised from 40 to 70 items. in 1992, factory 617 manufactured a further 4 prototype. in 1993, it is decided to raised the front armor protection from 600mm to 700mm to meet future requicement.
in august 1994, 2 testing prototype undergone test in southern region with hot and wet climate, in the test, the 2 prototype were driven 3800 km, 200 rounds were fired, in september, reliability and fording test were carried out in Tuoli and Huiahuling region outside Beijing. during 1995-96, 3 prototypes undergone arctic climate test in Tahe, Heilongjiang. in may 1996 factory 617 started the assembly of formal prototype. on 03/12/1996, the hand over ceremony was held, thus “third generation tank” has shifted from the engineering development stage to the design finalisation stage.
at the end of december 1996, 3 formal prototype were transported to Tahe for further arctic region testing, within the 2 month testing period, a total of 6,900km of driving distance were accumulated, 20 testing programs were completed. at the end of 1997, 4 formal prototype were put into another test with 20,000km travelled, 760 rounds were test fired. after 5 years of extensive testing and test within the army, all design were completed at the end of 1998, its firepower, FCS, armor protection and other hi-tech application have met or exceed design requicement. small-scale production of the type-98 was initiated in order for it to participated in the 1st october national day parade in 1999.
in the 10 years development period of type-98, hundreds of millions of yuan were spend, the unit cost of those participated in the parade is around 16 million yuan(1.9million US dollars).
the R&D effort of an improved version of type-98 has immediately begun after the design finalisation of type-98, compared to type-98, the improved(gai3 jin4) version has better overall capability, especially in the reliability of the overall performance, at the end of 2001, first batch of 40 type-98G has enter the service on a try-out basis.
Main weapon system:
in late 1970s, R&D started on large calibre tank gun, 120mm, 125mm, 130mm and others were developed, 120mm turned out to be slightly better than 125mm in some aspect, but 125mm was chosen due to the selection of t-72-type autoloader. 120mm end up on type-89 SPATG with a semi-autoloader. 125mm tank gun was successfully develop as early as 1985. after continues improvement, 125mm achieved higher bore pressure than 120mm.
type-98 is armed with a ZPT-98 125mm smoothbore gun with a length-diameter ratio of 50:1. the barrel is made of high-intensity PCrN13NoV, muzzle velocity is 45% higher than the russian 2A46M-1 type 125mm gun, 30% higher than RH-120 type 120mm gun on leo2A5 and M1A1/A2. hydraulic self-strengthening technology has resulted in a much stiffer barrel, the length is 6,412mm, it has a lifetime of 700 armor-pieceing rounds. the thermal sleeve is of a double aluminium plate structure with air gap, it consist of 5 non-interchangeble parts, its effective rate is 70%. ZPT-98 can be replaced on battlefield within 1 hr.
ammunition rounds used by type-98 include tungsten-uranium alloy APFSDS round using semi-combustble casing, FS-HEAT-FRG round and FS-MP-HESH round. a total of 41 rounds were carried, 22 stored within the autoloader. when firing third generation tungsten alloy APFSDS(initial speed 1,780m/sec), it could penetrate 850mm RHA at a distance of 2,000m. the latest special alloy armor-pieceing round can penetrate up to 960mm, the rod penetrator's length-diameter ratio is 30:1. the FS-MP-HESH is of a high-explosive type with extra explosive material packed inside. in addition, type-98 is armed with a laser-guided gun-launched missile system based on the russian 9K119(AT-11). the 9M119 warhead could penetrate 700mmRHA. type-98 is armed with 4 such missile under normal circumstance. the autoloader onboard the type-98 is based on a russian design, loading time for a single round is 8 seconds, test shows the autoloader has a interval breakdown rate of 3%. the ZPT-98 gun has maximum firing speed of 8 rounds per minute, the speed drops to 1-2 round per minute when its being manually operated.
Secondary armament:
1 type-86 7.62mm remotely controlled coaxial machine gun on the right hand side of the gun, 250 rounds in each ammunition belt, 2,000 in total. 1 manually operated QJC-88 12.7mm anti-aircraft machine gun on the commander’s hatch, range 1,500m, -4” to +75”, 800-1,000rds/min, 300 rounds in 5 belts. all together 3 AAG position were provided on type-98, one each in front and on the right hand side of the commander's hatch, one on the left hand side of the gunner’s hatch. in addition, three crews are equipped each with either a type-56c or type-95 short barrel assault rifle.
Fire control system
type-98's FCS is consist of a dual-axis gyro-stablised gunner's periscope integrates day-night sight and ranging capability; ballistic computer; control box; trunnion tilt sensor; turret horizontal angel speed sensor; wind direction and speed sensor and gun control sub-system. the gunner's sight is stabilised at vertical and horizontal axes with the main gun being independently stabilised, therefore a high degree of Ph(probability of a first hit) against stationary or moving target when itself is on the move can be attained. a 360 degree panoramic sight is mounted in front of the commander's hatch, this dual-axis stabilised sight can perform search, target acquisition and firing independently, it has laser-ranging and night-vision function, hunter-killer capability is achieved as it perform search for the next target while gunner is aiming the current one, if commander decided he has found a more threatening target, he could instantly overtake the control of the gun for firing using his sight, the commander could also monitor the gunner's work by align his line of sight with the gunner's.
both gunner and commander can fire on stationary and moving target at day and night while on the move, the reaction time at 2,000m when operating in this mode are <5/sec in Stationary vs. Stationary; <7/sec in Stationary vs. Moving; <9/sec in Moving vs. Moving. overall first shot Ph is above 85%. the FCS can be operated in downgraded and manual mode.
Night vision system
the thermal imager on type-98 is made of SPRITE detector with 8 refrigerated HgCdTe wafers, it could continuously work up to 12 hrs, its telescope weight 42kg and has a 5.6 degree x3.8 degree(x11.4 magnification); 12 degree x8 degree(x5 magnification) field of view. target identification range is 2,600m in daylight and 2,750m at night. the second generation TI equipped by type-98G has a working range of 7,000-9,000m, in a environment visible to naked eye at 100m, the detection range is 4,000m, identification range is 3,100m.
Electro-optical communication and countermeasure
the type-VHF-2000 tank communication system on type-98 has electronic countermeasure, electro-magnetic compatibility and multiple workstation capability. mounted behind the commander's hatch is a laser communication and IFF system. it's a compact and multifunctional system used for IFF, sending digital command signal, voiced communication and laser detection. its receiver could function as a laser warning system on the wavelength of 0.9-1.06 µm. it has a working range of >3,600m. up and down angle of +45 degree to -10 degree(same as the commander's sight), 360 degree at horizontal level, target detection time is <0.6sec, 60 encrypted IFF code is stored in the system.
further back on top of the turret is the type-9602 GPS navigation and position signal receiving antenna, its a two channel C/A code receiver and provide 3D military grade coordinates under all weather condition, data on tank's moving direction and speed along with those of the target can be established to provide suitable navigation route. type-9602 has a relatively low precision of 100m that fell short of some tactical requiement, once the type-98G is equipped with the successfully developed GLONSS/GPS navigation and positioning system, the precision can be increased to 20m.
on the back of the gunner's hatch is a active laser suppression system, it's designed to directly attack the various guidance systems on the opponent's weapon system. it can be operated by either the commander or the gunner, the laser ray could interfere or permanently damage IR sensor's components(laser ranger; night-vision equipment; TV camera head; telescopic sight; etc.) and has obvious effect against naked eyes. the system is consist of micro-computer control box; target tracking sub-system; laser suppressor and thermal image jammer. the system can be rotated 360 degree, +90 degree to -12 degree, horizontal tracking speed 45 degree/sec, vertical tracking speed 40 degree/sec, laser energy output is 1,000 MHz, laser pulse's working repetion rate is 10ps, maximum working range is 4,000m, continues working time is 30min, laser beamer has a lifespan of 1.2 million in addition, type-98's driver is equipped with anti-laser glass for protection from similar system fielded on the opponent's platform.
Automotive system
type-98 is installed with a 150HB883kw(1,200hp) diesel engine based on the german MB-871ka501 design, the 51-ton type-98 has a power-to-weight ratio of 17.3kw/tonne(23.54hp/ton) with a maximum road speed of 70km/hr, 0 to 32km/hr accelerating time is 12sec. compared to the CV12TVC-1200 on the Challenger 2, 150HB883kw weight 15% less that the former with the same power output. the 52-ton type-98G is installed with the newly developed 150HB1103kw(1,500hp) diesel engine, this give it a maximum road speed of 80km/hr, maximum field speed of 60km/hr. type-98's tracks are fitted with rubber-bushed pins and have rubber pads for road-running, 85 links at each side, total mass 2.1-ton, a lifespan of 10,000km.
Los nuevos Tipo-98 en una Parada Militar en Beijing.
Un saludo
Tipo 98 Basico
http://www.jed.simonides.org/tanks/tango-type/type-98_series/type-98g/type98g_001.jpg
El avanzado Tipo-98G
Development origin and background:
At the end of 1970, type-122 medium tank(experimental type) was aborted after 3 years of development due to technical bottleneck, in Feb. 1977, work on the new generation tank initiated, in april 1978, development goals were set, with t-72 as primary combat target. in march 1979, factory 617 and institute 201 developed the new type 1224 experimental chassis installed with MB8v331TC41 imported from germany. later, another two were developed, type-1226 with the 8V165(763kw, 1,000hp) diesel engine by factory 636 and type-1226F2 with the 12V150(763kw, 1,000hp) made by factory 616. all three prototype were armed with 120mm smoothbore, welded turret and ammunition storage was placed at the rear of the turret, many design philosophy of the german Leo2 were adopted.
after the designation of type-80 as the "second generation tank" in 1981, a division in design thinking of the "third generation tank" emerged with one group arguing for a design based on t-72, with 3 crew, 125mm gun, autoloader, and another group arguing for a merkava-styled design with front located power pack, 120mm gun, semi-automatic loader, high output diesel or gas turbine engine. this division caused a temporary delay in the project. in july 1984, the design was settled on a t-72-like configuration. in summer of 1986, the program was submitted to the state council and central military committee, in the same year, it was approved and incorporated in the major weapon development program of the seventh five-year plan.
in spring, 1989, formal contract was sighed with norinco for the "third generation tank". in
the beginning of the following year, factory 617 produced the first prototype for testing purpose. in 1991, its technical perimeter was raised from 40 to 70 items. in 1992, factory 617 manufactured a further 4 prototype. in 1993, it is decided to raised the front armor protection from 600mm to 700mm to meet future requicement.
in august 1994, 2 testing prototype undergone test in southern region with hot and wet climate, in the test, the 2 prototype were driven 3800 km, 200 rounds were fired, in september, reliability and fording test were carried out in Tuoli and Huiahuling region outside Beijing. during 1995-96, 3 prototypes undergone arctic climate test in Tahe, Heilongjiang. in may 1996 factory 617 started the assembly of formal prototype. on 03/12/1996, the hand over ceremony was held, thus “third generation tank” has shifted from the engineering development stage to the design finalisation stage.
at the end of december 1996, 3 formal prototype were transported to Tahe for further arctic region testing, within the 2 month testing period, a total of 6,900km of driving distance were accumulated, 20 testing programs were completed. at the end of 1997, 4 formal prototype were put into another test with 20,000km travelled, 760 rounds were test fired. after 5 years of extensive testing and test within the army, all design were completed at the end of 1998, its firepower, FCS, armor protection and other hi-tech application have met or exceed design requicement. small-scale production of the type-98 was initiated in order for it to participated in the 1st october national day parade in 1999.
in the 10 years development period of type-98, hundreds of millions of yuan were spend, the unit cost of those participated in the parade is around 16 million yuan(1.9million US dollars).
the R&D effort of an improved version of type-98 has immediately begun after the design finalisation of type-98, compared to type-98, the improved(gai3 jin4) version has better overall capability, especially in the reliability of the overall performance, at the end of 2001, first batch of 40 type-98G has enter the service on a try-out basis.
Main weapon system:
in late 1970s, R&D started on large calibre tank gun, 120mm, 125mm, 130mm and others were developed, 120mm turned out to be slightly better than 125mm in some aspect, but 125mm was chosen due to the selection of t-72-type autoloader. 120mm end up on type-89 SPATG with a semi-autoloader. 125mm tank gun was successfully develop as early as 1985. after continues improvement, 125mm achieved higher bore pressure than 120mm.
type-98 is armed with a ZPT-98 125mm smoothbore gun with a length-diameter ratio of 50:1. the barrel is made of high-intensity PCrN13NoV, muzzle velocity is 45% higher than the russian 2A46M-1 type 125mm gun, 30% higher than RH-120 type 120mm gun on leo2A5 and M1A1/A2. hydraulic self-strengthening technology has resulted in a much stiffer barrel, the length is 6,412mm, it has a lifetime of 700 armor-pieceing rounds. the thermal sleeve is of a double aluminium plate structure with air gap, it consist of 5 non-interchangeble parts, its effective rate is 70%. ZPT-98 can be replaced on battlefield within 1 hr.
ammunition rounds used by type-98 include tungsten-uranium alloy APFSDS round using semi-combustble casing, FS-HEAT-FRG round and FS-MP-HESH round. a total of 41 rounds were carried, 22 stored within the autoloader. when firing third generation tungsten alloy APFSDS(initial speed 1,780m/sec), it could penetrate 850mm RHA at a distance of 2,000m. the latest special alloy armor-pieceing round can penetrate up to 960mm, the rod penetrator's length-diameter ratio is 30:1. the FS-MP-HESH is of a high-explosive type with extra explosive material packed inside. in addition, type-98 is armed with a laser-guided gun-launched missile system based on the russian 9K119(AT-11). the 9M119 warhead could penetrate 700mmRHA. type-98 is armed with 4 such missile under normal circumstance. the autoloader onboard the type-98 is based on a russian design, loading time for a single round is 8 seconds, test shows the autoloader has a interval breakdown rate of 3%. the ZPT-98 gun has maximum firing speed of 8 rounds per minute, the speed drops to 1-2 round per minute when its being manually operated.
Secondary armament:
1 type-86 7.62mm remotely controlled coaxial machine gun on the right hand side of the gun, 250 rounds in each ammunition belt, 2,000 in total. 1 manually operated QJC-88 12.7mm anti-aircraft machine gun on the commander’s hatch, range 1,500m, -4” to +75”, 800-1,000rds/min, 300 rounds in 5 belts. all together 3 AAG position were provided on type-98, one each in front and on the right hand side of the commander's hatch, one on the left hand side of the gunner’s hatch. in addition, three crews are equipped each with either a type-56c or type-95 short barrel assault rifle.
Fire control system
type-98's FCS is consist of a dual-axis gyro-stablised gunner's periscope integrates day-night sight and ranging capability; ballistic computer; control box; trunnion tilt sensor; turret horizontal angel speed sensor; wind direction and speed sensor and gun control sub-system. the gunner's sight is stabilised at vertical and horizontal axes with the main gun being independently stabilised, therefore a high degree of Ph(probability of a first hit) against stationary or moving target when itself is on the move can be attained. a 360 degree panoramic sight is mounted in front of the commander's hatch, this dual-axis stabilised sight can perform search, target acquisition and firing independently, it has laser-ranging and night-vision function, hunter-killer capability is achieved as it perform search for the next target while gunner is aiming the current one, if commander decided he has found a more threatening target, he could instantly overtake the control of the gun for firing using his sight, the commander could also monitor the gunner's work by align his line of sight with the gunner's.
both gunner and commander can fire on stationary and moving target at day and night while on the move, the reaction time at 2,000m when operating in this mode are <5/sec in Stationary vs. Stationary; <7/sec in Stationary vs. Moving; <9/sec in Moving vs. Moving. overall first shot Ph is above 85%. the FCS can be operated in downgraded and manual mode.
Night vision system
the thermal imager on type-98 is made of SPRITE detector with 8 refrigerated HgCdTe wafers, it could continuously work up to 12 hrs, its telescope weight 42kg and has a 5.6 degree x3.8 degree(x11.4 magnification); 12 degree x8 degree(x5 magnification) field of view. target identification range is 2,600m in daylight and 2,750m at night. the second generation TI equipped by type-98G has a working range of 7,000-9,000m, in a environment visible to naked eye at 100m, the detection range is 4,000m, identification range is 3,100m.
Electro-optical communication and countermeasure
the type-VHF-2000 tank communication system on type-98 has electronic countermeasure, electro-magnetic compatibility and multiple workstation capability. mounted behind the commander's hatch is a laser communication and IFF system. it's a compact and multifunctional system used for IFF, sending digital command signal, voiced communication and laser detection. its receiver could function as a laser warning system on the wavelength of 0.9-1.06 µm. it has a working range of >3,600m. up and down angle of +45 degree to -10 degree(same as the commander's sight), 360 degree at horizontal level, target detection time is <0.6sec, 60 encrypted IFF code is stored in the system.
further back on top of the turret is the type-9602 GPS navigation and position signal receiving antenna, its a two channel C/A code receiver and provide 3D military grade coordinates under all weather condition, data on tank's moving direction and speed along with those of the target can be established to provide suitable navigation route. type-9602 has a relatively low precision of 100m that fell short of some tactical requiement, once the type-98G is equipped with the successfully developed GLONSS/GPS navigation and positioning system, the precision can be increased to 20m.
on the back of the gunner's hatch is a active laser suppression system, it's designed to directly attack the various guidance systems on the opponent's weapon system. it can be operated by either the commander or the gunner, the laser ray could interfere or permanently damage IR sensor's components(laser ranger; night-vision equipment; TV camera head; telescopic sight; etc.) and has obvious effect against naked eyes. the system is consist of micro-computer control box; target tracking sub-system; laser suppressor and thermal image jammer. the system can be rotated 360 degree, +90 degree to -12 degree, horizontal tracking speed 45 degree/sec, vertical tracking speed 40 degree/sec, laser energy output is 1,000 MHz, laser pulse's working repetion rate is 10ps, maximum working range is 4,000m, continues working time is 30min, laser beamer has a lifespan of 1.2 million in addition, type-98's driver is equipped with anti-laser glass for protection from similar system fielded on the opponent's platform.
Automotive system
type-98 is installed with a 150HB883kw(1,200hp) diesel engine based on the german MB-871ka501 design, the 51-ton type-98 has a power-to-weight ratio of 17.3kw/tonne(23.54hp/ton) with a maximum road speed of 70km/hr, 0 to 32km/hr accelerating time is 12sec. compared to the CV12TVC-1200 on the Challenger 2, 150HB883kw weight 15% less that the former with the same power output. the 52-ton type-98G is installed with the newly developed 150HB1103kw(1,500hp) diesel engine, this give it a maximum road speed of 80km/hr, maximum field speed of 60km/hr. type-98's tracks are fitted with rubber-bushed pins and have rubber pads for road-running, 85 links at each side, total mass 2.1-ton, a lifespan of 10,000km.
Los nuevos Tipo-98 en una Parada Militar en Beijing.
Un saludo
-
Andres
- Soldado Primero
- Mensajes: 95
- Registrado: 29 Ago 2003, 06:54
Hoy en dia hay tres tanques que son muy parejos ya que ambos utilizan casi la misma tecnologia, entrenamiento y apoyo.
Estos son el Leo 2A6, los Mk. 4 de los Israelies y el M-1A2 SEP de el US Army.
Estos tanques tienen un FCS similar, automatizado (Lase/Lead/Adjustment/Fire/Stabilization), poseen termales de 2ª Generacion, municiones de primera y tripulaciones exelentes.
En mi opinion estas tanques ya llegaron a una etapa donde ya estan al limite de su desarrollo. Que quiero decir con esto?, que no hay mucho mas que hacerles. Entre las pocas cosas que se les puede hacer es un sistema de defensa activo y mas nada.
De estos tres tanques mi favorito es el M-1A2 SEP, tiene un FCS exelente, una capacidad de recibir impactos frontales comprobada en combate (ejemplo el M-1 que se quedo barado en el Barro en ODS), unas municiones exelentes como la M829E3 APFSDS-T, es facil de mantener y es bien silencioso (especialmente con las T-158 HT) por eso les pusieron el sobrenombre de "Whispering Death" ens USARE.
Estos son el Leo 2A6, los Mk. 4 de los Israelies y el M-1A2 SEP de el US Army.
Estos tanques tienen un FCS similar, automatizado (Lase/Lead/Adjustment/Fire/Stabilization), poseen termales de 2ª Generacion, municiones de primera y tripulaciones exelentes.
En mi opinion estas tanques ya llegaron a una etapa donde ya estan al limite de su desarrollo. Que quiero decir con esto?, que no hay mucho mas que hacerles. Entre las pocas cosas que se les puede hacer es un sistema de defensa activo y mas nada.
De estos tres tanques mi favorito es el M-1A2 SEP, tiene un FCS exelente, una capacidad de recibir impactos frontales comprobada en combate (ejemplo el M-1 que se quedo barado en el Barro en ODS), unas municiones exelentes como la M829E3 APFSDS-T, es facil de mantener y es bien silencioso (especialmente con las T-158 HT) por eso les pusieron el sobrenombre de "Whispering Death" ens USARE.
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alejandro_
- General de Brigada
- Mensajes: 4387
- Registrado: 23 Ago 2003, 18:19
- Ubicación: Oxfordshire, RU
Hola
Andres
Yo a esa lista le añadiria el Leclerc.
Entre el Merkava Mk4, M-1A2SEP, Leclerc y Leo-2A6 yo me quedaria con el Merkava porque es el mejor en terreno urbano, zona en la que peor se desevuelven los tanques. Ademas es mas polivalente: tiene mortero, compartimento para tropas, capacidad de disparar misiles AT, cargador automatico etc
La turbina del Abrams es lo unico que no me convence, viendo la experiencia de los rusos con sus T-80 en Chechenia con una turbina de gas similar me da que en una zona urbana el modelo americano estaria en desvetaja. El Leclerc y Leo-2A6 nunca han sido utilizados en combate asi que no puedo opinar.
Saludos.
Andres
Yo a esa lista le añadiria el Leclerc.
Entre el Merkava Mk4, M-1A2SEP, Leclerc y Leo-2A6 yo me quedaria con el Merkava porque es el mejor en terreno urbano, zona en la que peor se desevuelven los tanques. Ademas es mas polivalente: tiene mortero, compartimento para tropas, capacidad de disparar misiles AT, cargador automatico etc
La turbina del Abrams es lo unico que no me convence, viendo la experiencia de los rusos con sus T-80 en Chechenia con una turbina de gas similar me da que en una zona urbana el modelo americano estaria en desvetaja. El Leclerc y Leo-2A6 nunca han sido utilizados en combate asi que no puedo opinar.
Saludos.
-
Andres
- Soldado Primero
- Mensajes: 95
- Registrado: 29 Ago 2003, 06:54
El Mk4 no tiene un Loader Automatico, tiene un sistema que ayuda al loader a cargar mas rapido, es un loader Semi Automatico. En tal caso es el loader el que hace casi todo (Revolving Magazine IIRC).
El problema con ATGM disparados por en canon es:
- las situaciones tacticas en las que puede ser empleadas son muy pocas.
- al disparar no se puede maniobrar, cosa que te transforma en un objetivo.
- los ATGM son relativamente lentos, cosa que da chance al enemigo a manibrar para disparar.
El Mk. 4 es un tanque disenado para las nesesidades Israelies, mas no para las nesesidades de cualquier otro ejercito.
Los Abraams vieron MOUT en Karbala, las Thunder Runs en Bagddag, y dia a dia en Iraq.
El problema con ATGM disparados por en canon es:
- las situaciones tacticas en las que puede ser empleadas son muy pocas.
- al disparar no se puede maniobrar, cosa que te transforma en un objetivo.
- los ATGM son relativamente lentos, cosa que da chance al enemigo a manibrar para disparar.
El Mk. 4 es un tanque disenado para las nesesidades Israelies, mas no para las nesesidades de cualquier otro ejercito.
Los Abraams vieron MOUT en Karbala, las Thunder Runs en Bagddag, y dia a dia en Iraq.
At the start of the war in Iraq, conventional wisdom was that Abrams tanks and Bradley Fighting Vehicles were vulnerable to shoulder-fired anti-tank missiles and rocket-propelled grenades without protection from lots of dismounted infantry. But Perkins would soon prove otherwise in his first “thunder run” to Baghdad international.
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alejandro_
- General de Brigada
- Mensajes: 4387
- Registrado: 23 Ago 2003, 18:19
- Ubicación: Oxfordshire, RU
Hola
Andres
Lo del cargador automatico en el Merkava es algo dificil de definir. Los 10 primeros tiros son efectuados mediante el cargador automatico, pero luego hay que volver a llenar el "revolver". No es como en los T-80 donde hay 28 en el carrusel pero el metodo israeli me parece infinitamente mas seguro.
En cuanto a la poca utilidad de los misiles ATGM pues en una situacion defensiva podrian ser claves ya que pueden poner fuera de combate a otro carro de combate desde mas distancia que un cañon (4000-5000 metros). En una situacion defensiva se les puede sacar el maximo provecho. Imaginate varios Merkavas camuflados repeliendo un ataque de T-72 sirios... el uso de ATGM podria diezmar a los carros arabes antes de que estos puden localizar o hace fuego sobre los Mk4.
No entiendo porque dices que un ATGM es lento: el AT-11 Sniper tarda 14.2s en recorrer 5 kms. Esto equivale a una velocidad media de 352m/s, mas que la velocidad del sonido. Me gustaria saber el margen de reaccion que tiene un tanque cuado un ATGM es dirigido hacia el (Si es que se llega a enterar que no siempre es el caso).
Yo no he dicho que el Abrams no sea adecuado para MOUT, pero el Merkava es mucho mas apropiado. A parte de que el Ejercito con mas experiencia en MOUT con tanques con turbinas es el Ruso, y mira lo bien que les fue en Grozni en el 94. No es por casualidad o por gusto que el tanque ruso ahora adquirido por el Ejercito es el T-90 (con motor diesel mas seguro y barato de operar).
Saludos.
Andres
Lo del cargador automatico en el Merkava es algo dificil de definir. Los 10 primeros tiros son efectuados mediante el cargador automatico, pero luego hay que volver a llenar el "revolver". No es como en los T-80 donde hay 28 en el carrusel pero el metodo israeli me parece infinitamente mas seguro.
En cuanto a la poca utilidad de los misiles ATGM pues en una situacion defensiva podrian ser claves ya que pueden poner fuera de combate a otro carro de combate desde mas distancia que un cañon (4000-5000 metros). En una situacion defensiva se les puede sacar el maximo provecho. Imaginate varios Merkavas camuflados repeliendo un ataque de T-72 sirios... el uso de ATGM podria diezmar a los carros arabes antes de que estos puden localizar o hace fuego sobre los Mk4.
No entiendo porque dices que un ATGM es lento: el AT-11 Sniper tarda 14.2s en recorrer 5 kms. Esto equivale a una velocidad media de 352m/s, mas que la velocidad del sonido. Me gustaria saber el margen de reaccion que tiene un tanque cuado un ATGM es dirigido hacia el (Si es que se llega a enterar que no siempre es el caso).
Yo no he dicho que el Abrams no sea adecuado para MOUT, pero el Merkava es mucho mas apropiado. A parte de que el Ejercito con mas experiencia en MOUT con tanques con turbinas es el Ruso, y mira lo bien que les fue en Grozni en el 94. No es por casualidad o por gusto que el tanque ruso ahora adquirido por el Ejercito es el T-90 (con motor diesel mas seguro y barato de operar).
Saludos.
-
alejandro_
- General de Brigada
- Mensajes: 4387
- Registrado: 23 Ago 2003, 18:19
- Ubicación: Oxfordshire, RU
Hola
Mi opinion sobre el T-90 frente al T-80UM-2 Bars:
-El T-80UM-2 esta mejor protegido debido a su modificado carrusel, los 2 tanques cuentan con el sistema ARENA pero el T-80 siempre fue superior a las variantes del T-72 por su diseño y la manera en la que la coraza esta repartida.
-En cuanto a potencia de fuego los 2 tanques estan empatados, mismo cañon, mismos ATGM pero el T-80UM-2 parece que tiene mas cadencia de fuego.
- En mobilidad pienso que la turbina de gas le da un plus al T-80UM-2 sobre el T-90 (equipado con un motor diesel de 840 caballos). Aun asi el motor diesel es mas seguro y barato.
Finalmente yo diria que en electronica el T-80 es tambien superior, pero no estoy muy seguro.
En 1999 la proteccion del T-80U y T-90 fue comparada en unos tests, el T-90 se impuso pero es que el T-80U ya tenia mas de 10 años a sus espaldas (1985 entrada en servicio mas o menos), no me extrañaria que el T-80UM-2 fuese superior. Personalmente creo que se escogio el T-90 por su menor coste.
Los tanques rusos estan en desventaja frente a los occidentales debido a una serie de factores:
- La calidad del cañon y municion es menor. Los cañones de 120mm OTAN y sus municiones superan ampliamente a los cañones 2A46M rusos, que ta acusan sus años. Esto se debe a la inferior calidad de la produccion, el uso de carga y proyectil separados y la utilizacion de municion DU por parte de la OTAN.
- La electronica utilizada en carros de combate occidentales suele ser superior.
- Otro punto debil de los tanques rusos es el cargador automatico y el carrusel instalado en la base de la torreta. Si un impacto penetra esa zona es muy posible que cause el estallido de las municiones, matando a toda la tripulacion. En este aspecto destaca el Merkava Mk4, que es probablemente el tanque mejor protegido.
Aun asi los modelos rusos tienen ciertas ventajas como un coste mucho menor, medidas de proteccion activas y un menor perfil.
Saludos.
Mi opinion sobre el T-90 frente al T-80UM-2 Bars:
-El T-80UM-2 esta mejor protegido debido a su modificado carrusel, los 2 tanques cuentan con el sistema ARENA pero el T-80 siempre fue superior a las variantes del T-72 por su diseño y la manera en la que la coraza esta repartida.
-En cuanto a potencia de fuego los 2 tanques estan empatados, mismo cañon, mismos ATGM pero el T-80UM-2 parece que tiene mas cadencia de fuego.
- En mobilidad pienso que la turbina de gas le da un plus al T-80UM-2 sobre el T-90 (equipado con un motor diesel de 840 caballos). Aun asi el motor diesel es mas seguro y barato.
Finalmente yo diria que en electronica el T-80 es tambien superior, pero no estoy muy seguro.
En 1999 la proteccion del T-80U y T-90 fue comparada en unos tests, el T-90 se impuso pero es que el T-80U ya tenia mas de 10 años a sus espaldas (1985 entrada en servicio mas o menos), no me extrañaria que el T-80UM-2 fuese superior. Personalmente creo que se escogio el T-90 por su menor coste.
Los tanques rusos estan en desventaja frente a los occidentales debido a una serie de factores:
- La calidad del cañon y municion es menor. Los cañones de 120mm OTAN y sus municiones superan ampliamente a los cañones 2A46M rusos, que ta acusan sus años. Esto se debe a la inferior calidad de la produccion, el uso de carga y proyectil separados y la utilizacion de municion DU por parte de la OTAN.
- La electronica utilizada en carros de combate occidentales suele ser superior.
- Otro punto debil de los tanques rusos es el cargador automatico y el carrusel instalado en la base de la torreta. Si un impacto penetra esa zona es muy posible que cause el estallido de las municiones, matando a toda la tripulacion. En este aspecto destaca el Merkava Mk4, que es probablemente el tanque mejor protegido.
Aun asi los modelos rusos tienen ciertas ventajas como un coste mucho menor, medidas de proteccion activas y un menor perfil.
Saludos.
-
Andres
- Soldado Primero
- Mensajes: 95
- Registrado: 29 Ago 2003, 06:54
Sobre el T-90,
Es que conseguir info es muy dificil, hasta ahora se que el T-90 tiene algo llamado 1A45T Irtysh computerized system with 9S515 missile guidance system; aunque la data es muy escasa, sin embargo hasta donde se el lead counter ha tenido problemas en los trials. El T-90 es un tanque barato, facil de mantener y bueno, honrando el nombre del T-72.
El T-90 viene de las palizas que le dieron los M-1 a los T-72M1 en Iraq, asi que debe tener un mejor FCS.
Asi que yo no opino sobre el T-90 ya que no hay suficiente informacion para hacerlo.
Es que conseguir info es muy dificil, hasta ahora se que el T-90 tiene algo llamado 1A45T Irtysh computerized system with 9S515 missile guidance system; aunque la data es muy escasa, sin embargo hasta donde se el lead counter ha tenido problemas en los trials. El T-90 es un tanque barato, facil de mantener y bueno, honrando el nombre del T-72.
El T-90 viene de las palizas que le dieron los M-1 a los T-72M1 en Iraq, asi que debe tener un mejor FCS.
Asi que yo no opino sobre el T-90 ya que no hay suficiente informacion para hacerlo.
-
pit
- Coronel
- Mensajes: 3496
- Registrado: 30 Jul 2003, 20:51
Alejandro, los soviets tienen munición con cabezas de DU (Uranio Empobrecido) desde 1982 si no me equivoco con la BM-28 o 30 no lo tengo a mano...luego vino la "Vant" BM-32 mejorada...
El problema es la longitud del dardo dado el cargador automático...
Andres he leido que el T-90 ha tenido problemas en sus pruebas en India que al parecer ya se han solucionado, pero nada que vear con el FCS en sino con los termales y problemas de "empacado" -si recuerdo bien!-
El FCS del T-90 es solo una revisión ligera del del T-80U osea mas o menos a nivel del LEO-2A4 o M1A1...
Sabían que el HVA alemano oriental se robó un par de LEO-2Axx en la guerra fria :)?
Como se divertían los ossies con esos bichos...intentos posteriores de obtener A4 sin embargo no funcionaron :(
El problema es la longitud del dardo dado el cargador automático...
Andres he leido que el T-90 ha tenido problemas en sus pruebas en India que al parecer ya se han solucionado, pero nada que vear con el FCS en sino con los termales y problemas de "empacado" -si recuerdo bien!-
El FCS del T-90 es solo una revisión ligera del del T-80U osea mas o menos a nivel del LEO-2A4 o M1A1...
Sabían que el HVA alemano oriental se robó un par de LEO-2Axx en la guerra fria :)?
Como se divertían los ossies con esos bichos...intentos posteriores de obtener A4 sin embargo no funcionaron :(
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