Eurofighter Vs. F-22 y F-35 (archivo)

Fuerzas Aéreas del Mundo. Noticias e historia. Sus aviones de guerra, helicópteros y misiles. Programas de construcción aérea. Pilotos y paracaidistas.

En conjunto, ¿Qué caza es superior?

Eurofighter Tifón
12
39%
F-22 Raptor
12
39%
F-35 Lightning II
7
23%
 
Votos totales: 31

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fjm
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Mauricio escribió:El AESA operativo... el 2015.


A ver como sale.

En su momento se dijo que se pretendía algo superior al APG-81 e inferior al APG-77, pero ha llovido tanto desde entonces que no tengo ni idea de que prestaciones se esperan de él.

Lo que si parece claro es que será móvil en contra de los AESA americanos para tener mayores ángulos de operatividad.


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Plissken_101_AB
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Mauricio escribió:El AESA operativo... el 2015.

Imagen


Wishful thinking. Hay tantas posibilidades de que se instalen esos AESA en los Typhoon en 2015 como de que Julian Assange consiga mojar el churro sin violar a nadie.


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Mauricio
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Plissken_101_AB escribió:Wishful thinking. Hay tantas posibilidades de que se instalen esos AESA en los Typhoon en 2015 como de que Julian Assange consiga mojar el churro sin violar a nadie.


Yo en cambio estoy bastante seguro que el AESA será una realidad. En los aviones de exportación, eso si. Los aviones de los socios... quizás lo reciban en algún MLU. España, el que faltaba, se ha desentendido de sus aviones del Tranche 3B. Es decir, el Tranche 3B está muerto.

Supongo que el consorcio va a apostar la casa al MMRCA. Es un concurso que tienen que ganar.


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Yo en cambio estoy bastante seguro que el AESA será una realidad. En los aviones de exportación, eso si. Los aviones de los socios... quizás lo reciban en algún MLU.

Bueno, ya veremos. Con la crisis actual nadie piensa en más que recortar todo lo posible. Pero en 2015 la situación no será la misma y el AESA estará disponible. Es obvio que los socios, de ponérselo, sería retroactivamente. Salvo que dispongan de una máquina del tiempo :mrgreen:

Es decir, el Tranche 3B está muerto.

Sí y no. Está muerto en cuanto a los cazas a construir pero no en cuanto a las tecnologías a desarrollar e integrar (al menos parte de ellas, de hecho una parte clave de ellas). Porque el AESA (con la capacidad de guía de UCAVs implicada), el Meteor, cierto armamento AS y sus softwares asociados estaban planeados para la T3B. Y se van a desarrollar e integrar igualmente aunque no haya producción de T3B.

Chao


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flanker33
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El Pentagono prevee costes mayores para el F-35 y un retraso de hasta 3 años:

Pentagon May See Higher F-35 Costs, Delays Up to Three Years

http://www.defense-aerospace.com/articl ... nears.html

Extracto:

The $50 billion development phase may cost as much as $5 billion more, and Pentagon analysts now estimate the JSF may be as much as 1 1/2 times more expensive to maintain than the warplanes it will replace, according to preliminary estimates in Venlet’s review, the officials said.

The potential increases would be on top of changes unveiled this year by the Pentagon: a 13-month extension to the current development phase to November 2015, shifting of $2.8 billion in production funds for continued research and delaying the purchase of 122 jets to beyond 2015.


Saludos.


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Mauricio
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Video Captures Ballistic Missile Defense Capabilities of Northrop Grumman's Distributed Aperture System for F-35

Source: Northrop Grumman Corp.; issued November 2, 2010

BALTIMORE --- Northrop Grumman Corporation today released a video showing the successful detection and tracking of a two-stage rocket launch at a distance exceeding 800 miles (1,300 kilometers) with the company's AN/AAQ-37 Distributed Aperture System (DAS). The demonstration took place this summer during a routine flight test of DAS conducted aboard the company's BAC 1-11 test bed aircraft.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DN-A6PWRFno

http://www.defense-aerospace.com/articl ... ision.html


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Mauricio
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¿LM dando manotazos de ahogado?

Inside Defense (cited by Bob Cox) is reporting another change in the JSF program: the two LRIP-1 F-35As will be instrumented for tests, delivered to Edwards AFB in April 2011 and used for further testing.

Two very important points: They will be flown by USAF Test Pilot School pilots - presumably faculty, not students - rather than the JSF integrated test team. Also, until now they weren't supposed to go to Edwards at all. They were due to go to Eglin, where they would start training Marine instructors in the basics of the jet, an event that was on the critical path to Marine IOC.


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flanker33 escribió:El Pentagono prevee costes mayores para el F-35 y un retraso de hasta 3 años:

Pentagon May See Higher F-35 Costs, Delays Up to Three Years

http://www.defense-aerospace.com/articl ... nears.html

Extracto:

The $50 billion development phase may cost as much as $5 billion more, and Pentagon analysts now estimate the JSF may be as much as 1 1/2 times more expensive to maintain than the warplanes it will replace, according to preliminary estimates in Venlet’s review, the officials said.

The potential increases would be on top of changes unveiled this year by the Pentagon: a 13-month extension to the current development phase to November 2015, shifting of $2.8 billion in production funds for continued research and delaying the purchase of 122 jets to beyond 2015.


Saludos.

Cuando recuerdo que una autoridades yankee han mofado los retrasos del programa ruso PAK-FA, y por fin parece que éste va a entrar en grada antes que el JSF-F35 y probablemente sin sobrecostes.

Cuando unos infravaloran el "adversario" y se sobrevaloran a su mismos ... :roll:
Al final, y que pueda o no detectar misiles balisticos, este programa del JSF-F35 vuelve a ser una verdadera timada

Saludos


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Mauricio
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Uffff... lo que le falta... :mrgreen:

A planned acceleration of upgrades to the Eurofighter Typhoon is to be in place by March 2018, although the full scope of this effort has not been spelled out. It is likely to include the active, electronically scanned array radar and Meteor air-to-air missile integration, as well as the Storm Shadow cruise missile.


http://www.aviationweek.com/aw/generic/ ... adline=U.K. Outlines Defense Review Follow-up Plan&channel=defense


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Parece que el Japón se decide por su próximo caza. Y el ganador es...

F-35 Stealth Jet Eyed As Next ASDF Workhorse

Source: Kyodo News service; issued Nov.8, 2010

The Defense Ministry is setting its sights on making the F-35 Joint Strike Fighter the Air Self-Defense Force's next mainstay combat jet after giving up a plan to buy more F-2s, sources said Sunday.

The ministry plans to list the procurement costs for the next-generation jet in its budget request for fiscal 2012.

The ministry, which is trying to update its fighter jet fleet, was planning to retool its F-15 Eagles and buy more F-2s as a stopgap measure, given the delay in the development of the F-35, a fifth-generation stealth jet capable of flying at supersonic speeds, and its climbing price tag.

But the ministry has determined that procuring the less-functional F-2 would be unwise in terms of deterrent capability and cost.

Since China has been mass-producing its own fighter planes, which are comparable to the F-15, and is also seeking to develop a next-generation aircraft of its own, the ministry is looking to purchase about 40 F-35s or other fifth-generation fighters, they said.

The Defense Ministry has requested ¥680 million from the fiscal 2011 budget to obtain information on the capabilities of the F-35, which is being jointly developed by nine countries, including the United States, Britain and Italy.

But since priority has been placed on deploying the stealth jet to the countries developing it, it is unclear when Japan would be able to procure them. What's more, the price tag for the F-35 has since soared from an original quote of about $50 million per unit to $95 million.

The Defense Ministry plans to start retiring its F-15 fighters in succession starting around 2020.


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flanker33
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Propuesta de The National Commission on Fiscal Responsibility and Reform para ahorrar gasto que pueden afectar al F-35:

46. Substitute F-16 and F/A-18Es for half of the Air Force and Navy’s planned buys of F-35 fighter aircraft.
With a planned total buy of 2,443 aircraft, the F-35 or Joint Strike Fighter (JSF) is the Defense Department’s largest weapon procurement program. This option would buy half as many as the 369 planned for the Air Force and the 311 for the Navy, purchasing instead the current generation fighter aircraft, the Air Force F-16 aircraft at one-third of the cost and the Navy F/A18E/F at two-thirds of the cost of the F-35. The unit cost of F-35 aircraft is estimated at about $133 million compared to $40 million for an F-16 and $80 million for an F-18E.

The rationale for this change would be that DOD does not need an entire fleet with the stealthy capabilities of the JSF, and could rely instead on upgraded F-16 and F/A-18E aircraft for half of their fleet, a “high-low” mix.

This is estimated to save $2.3 billion in FY2015, and a total of $9.5 billion for FY2011-FY2015. The option might also allow the services to upgrade their tactical air fleets sooner in case the F-35 is delayed because of additional technical problems, since the F-16 and F-18E lines are currently open. In 2009, CBO described a similar option that would have cancelled the F-35 program altogether.

47. Cancel the Marine Corps version of the F-35.
This option would cancel the Marine Corps version of the F-35 Joint Strike Fighter because of its technical problems, cost overruns, schedule delays, and the adoption by the services of joint combat support in current wartime operations.

This would save $3.9 billion in FY2015 and $17.6 billion for FY2012 - FY2015.

At a total cost of $41 billion, DOD plans to buy 311 F-35Bs for the Marine Corps to replace the Marine Corps AV-8B. In its recent defense review, the United Kingdom decided to cancel its buy of the Marine Corps version of the JSF.

Further, the sophisticated capabilities of the JSF may be less relevant in current scenarios. Under Secretary of the Navy Robert Workman observed that greater use of guided missiles and mortar could end the forward operations that would be performed by the Marine Corps JSF because of vulnerability.

Also, because the Marine Corps version of the JSF has been responsible for most of the technical, cost, and schedule problems, cancelling it could accelerate delivery of the Air Force (F35A) and Navy (F-35C) versions.


http://www.defense-aerospace.com/articl ... 00-bn.html

Saludos.


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flanker33 escribió:Propuesta de The National Commission on Fiscal Responsibility and Reform para ahorrar gasto que pueden afectar al F-35:

46. Substitute F-16 and F/A-18Es for half of the Air Force and Navy’s planned buys of F-35 fighter aircraft.
With a planned total buy of 2,443 aircraft, the F-35 or Joint Strike Fighter (JSF) is the Defense Department’s largest weapon procurement program. This option would buy half as many as the 369 planned for the Air Force and the 311 for the Navy, purchasing instead the current generation fighter aircraft, the Air Force F-16 aircraft at one-third of the cost and the Navy F/A18E/F at two-thirds of the cost of the F-35. The unit cost of F-35 aircraft is estimated at about $133 million compared to $40 million for an F-16 and $80 million for an F-18E.

The rationale for this change would be that DOD does not need an entire fleet with the stealthy capabilities of the JSF, and could rely instead on upgraded F-16 and F/A-18E aircraft for half of their fleet, a “high-low” mix.

This is estimated to save $2.3 billion in FY2015, and a total of $9.5 billion for FY2011-FY2015. The option might also allow the services to upgrade their tactical air fleets sooner in case the F-35 is delayed because of additional technical problems, since the F-16 and F-18E lines are currently open. In 2009, CBO described a similar option that would have cancelled the F-35 program altogether.



Saludos.


Esto es algo que yo siempre he pensado que por lo menos la USAF no necesita que toda o casi toda su flota de cazas sea furtiva si es a un costo tan enorme.

La USAF está más que servida con entre 800-1.000 cazas furtivos entre F22 y F35, el resto que sean cazas más baratos de operar y comprar.


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Buen artículo de AW:

Rivals Target JSF

Nov 30, 2010
By Bill Sweetman
London

With the Joint Strike Fighter (JSF) program likely to be hit by further delays on top of the 13-month slip in development announced in February, competitors are beginning to see hope for the future despite tight budgets worldwide. The JSF program office canceled an appearance at Defense IQ’s October fighter conference here. People talking about other programs, though, were no longer shy about benchmarking their favorite jets against the ambitious U.S.-led project, now five years behind its original schedule with a sixth in the offing.

Another conference theme was a broader definition of capability, beyond a simplistic “generation” standard based on platform design. Many new or modernized fighters are acquiring a range of capabilities introduced in the last decade, including active, electronically scanned array (AESA) radar, high-definition targeting pods, the ability to release multiple guided weapons at separate targets in a single pass, and helmet-mounted displays. So-called “non-stealthy” aircraft are using a combination of radar cross-section (RCS) reduction measures and new-technology jamming based on digital radio frequency memory (RF) to defeat RF-guided weapons.

“I don’t know what fifth-generation means, except that when I talk to an F-22 pilot he makes it clear that he flies a fifth-generation jet and I don’t,” said U.S. Air Force Maj. Chris Cassem of USAF’s Weapons School, who went on to make the case that his Boeing F-15E Eagle does a lot of things that Lockheed Martin F-22s and F‑35s won’t do, or won’t do any better, even when they reach full capability. The F-15E, Cassem points out, brings long range, a large and diverse weapon load and a two-place cockpit to the joint campaign.

“It’s hard to hang external tanks on a pure-stealth aircraft,” Cassem noted. “If we’re on a close air support mission we can stay 1-2 hr. on station with ordnance to match and we don’t revert to being an ISR (intelligence, surveillance, reconnaissance) platform after one attack.” The F-15E is well matched to other missions in current conflicts, including counter-maritime operations—“the Navy may not have enough assets, or can’t get there quickly enough”—and armed-overwatch missions such as tracking HVIs (high-value individuals) and counter-IED (improvised explosive device) patrols. (A Dutch speaker, by the way, said that the Rafael Recce-Lite pod carried by F-16s was being used successfully for counter-IED missions in Afghanistan.)

Cassem noted the value of a second seat in complex missions, a view echoed by U.S. Navy Cmdr. Steve Comstock from the F/A-18E/F program office. “I was a single-seat pilot with a lot of pride in that accomplishment,” Comstock said. But after the APG-79 AESA radar arrived, “a lot of pride-swallowing went on.” The AESA’s ability to “interleave” different modes is best exploited by a crew of two—for example, with the pilot managing the air picture and the weapon system operator searching for ground targets. The radar itself is running at a mean time between failure of 850 hr., versus an F/A-18 family record of 100-110 hr. for the older APG-73 radar, as supported by Patria for the Finnish air force.

It is increasingly clear, however, that a severe drag on the Super Hornet in the export market is the Pentagon itself, which is still setting a 2030 retirement date for the aircraft. As a result, Boeing is becoming more open about targeting the F-35C—the most vulnerable version of the aircraft, according to company executives—with a pincer strategy, with an improved F/A-18 in the near term and a Next-Generation Air Dominance platform further out.

First discussed at Farnborough, the improved Super Hornet features conformal fuel tanks (CFTs) above the body and a low RCS weapon pod for the centerline station, and would use more powerful (and already demonstrated) F414 engines. These are related: the CFTs restore the fuel lost with the centerline tank—with less transonic drag—and more thrust improves the Hornet’s transonic acceleration, which is not its strong point today.

It will also carry an internal infrared search-and-track (IRST) system, with Boeing calling IRST “the AESA of the 2010s” because of the technical improvements in newer systems. (The F-35 has an IRST function built into its electro-optical sensor, but advocates of a dedicated IRST say a scanning long-wave system outperforms a staring midwave sensor.) Boeing now says publicly that the Super Hornet “could be a bridge to the next airplane.”

That next airplane, in Boeing’s view, will be distinguished by greater range, as a counter to the development of antiaccess and area-denial weapons such as China’s antiship ballistic missile and long-range air-launched cruise missiles. It will also feature more advanced stealth technology than the F-35C—Boeing’s publicly revealed concept is tailless—to offset advanced air-defense weapons and counter-stealth technology.

European fighter producers are also pushing back against U.S. assumptions of superiority. The Rafale’s low production rate (11 per year) may seem risible in U.S. terms, but as Lt. Col. Fabrice Grandclaudon, program manager at the French DGA arms development agency, pointed out, Dassault has delivered 93 aircraft out of 180 on order.

By comparison, the F-22 program, launched around the same time, has delivered 120-plus deployable aircraft out of 187 ordered (with 47 early jets relegated to training and test). And although the F-22 is conceded to reign supreme in air-to-air, the Rafale has delivered air-to-ground weapons in anger and is operationally capable of hitting six independent ground targets in a single pass with the Sagem SBU-38 Hammer rocket-boosted bomb (the F-22, so far, can release two weapons on predetermined coordinates). Rafale is also cleared with conventional and nuclear cruise missiles (the last on July 1) and is testing the Thales Areos multiband long-range oblique photography reconnaissance pod. Future upgrades identified as F3+ include AESA radar and improvements to the frontal sector optronic system.

Likewise, Eurofighter’s conference delegation was there to talk about production and upgrades as well as to explain some of the once-classified early history of the program. One of EADS-Cassidian’s ancestor companies, Germany’s MBB, was well advanced with stealth research as today’s Typhoon was being defined in the 1980s, designing a stealth interceptor named Lampyridae.

The project was stopped abruptly under U.S. pressure. Eurofighter veterans now say it was instrumental in a decision to design the Typhoon with an emphasis on nose-on, X-band RCS reduction, because a combination of high supersonic speed and agility combined with wide-aspect, wideband stealth would result in an unaffordable aircraft nearly twice the size of Typhoon. With the Pentagon’s decision on the F-22 last year, they now believe that was the right call.

Eurofighter is also reminding people that upgrade programs are still funded despite potential cuts in orders from primary customers and a tight export market. The SRP-14 radar software upgrade arrives in 2014 and includes the two-way data link for the Meteor ramjet-powered air-to-air missile. Development is also under way on the Selex Captor-E AESA upgrade, being pushed by Saudi Arabia and (like the Vixen 1000 for the Gripen NG) equipped with a two-bearing “repositioner” that allows it to cover a wide field of regard.

Eurofighter says that a conventional fixed-antenna AESA was considered some years ago and rejected by the customer and the manufacturer because of its limited field of regard—since an AESA “squints” to look off-boresight, its range diminishes at the edges of its scan envelope. The Typhoon is designed to exploit its maneuver performance by an aggressive “f-pole” turn, launching a missile and then turning away to avoid the target’s counter-attack, so its effectiveness demands good radar performance over a wide angle. “With a fixed AESA we ended up with less effectiveness in combat,” one engineer says.

Adding Meteor alone doubles Typhoon’s combat loss exchange ratio against a mixed fighter/bomber threat (the reference is the Sukhoi Su-35 and Su-34) and AESA increases it further, as does the addition of the EJ230 engine upgrade, a 15% thrust boost with no major changes.

USAF is working on upgrading the F-22, but the process has been slow and costly—the Fiscal 2011 budget request included almost $1.3 billion for the program. Maj. James Akers, chief of the F-22 branch in Air Combat Command’s Requirements Directorate, gave a briefing on a program that is years behind the schedule set in 2008 and under fire in Congress.

Increment 3.1, a hardware and software change which includes improved central processor cards, is nearing operational test and evaluation, due to start at Nellis AFB, Nev., next month. It focuses on air-to-ground capability. Currently, the F-22 can only release one bomb type, the GBU-32 1,000‑lb. Joint Direct Attack Munition, on pre-loaded or externally supplied coordinates. Increment 3.1 includes a synthetic aperture radar mode, integration of up to eight GBU-39 Small Diameter Bombs (SDBs)—although only two can be guided at once—and new electronic attack modes in the APG-77 radar.

A newly defined upgrade, Increment 3.2 Accelerated, brings forward some software elements from the full 3.2 package. It is focused on electronic protection, including resistance to emerging jammer technology, but also includes better combat identification.

The Rafale program is working in this area too, and French documents specify the work involves dealing with RCS-treated aircraft. It is likely that head-on RCS treatments invalidate the jet engine modulation technique for non-cooperative target recognition (NCTR), which relies on the characteristic return signal of a target’s spinning compressor blades.

Combat identification is a vital element in beyond-visual-range engagements, particularly for a stealth aircraft. Historically, rules of engagement have required the target to be identified either visually or by multiple means (for example, by radar NCTR and electronic surveillance). But if those means are degraded, a stealth fighter may be forced into its adversary’s detection range before launching weapons, which negates the advantage of stealth.

Funding for the full F-22 Increment 3.2 package—“very large and very expensive”—should start in earnest in Fiscal 2012. It includes integration of the AIM-9X and AIM-120D missiles, another combat-identification upgrade, better ground target geolocation and the ability to target eight SDBs in one pass. It will not be operational before 2016.

As recently as 2008, these modifications were to be fielded by 2013. Moreover, one major element of 3.2, replacement of the old intra-flight data link by a multifunction advanced data link, was removed from that package this year. The result is that the F-22 will not be able to communicate with the rest of the force in a low-observable manner until the late 2010s at best, except possibly by using the Battlefield Airborne Communications Node package installed on Block 20 Global Hawks.

One issue highlighted by the progress of the F-22 upgrade program is a tendency among planners to underfund the initial development of major platforms to improve their chances of political survival, deferring essential capabilities to post-service upgrades. The problem is that these programs in turn may be underfunded and slowed down, ultimately costing far more than it would have to provide the same capabilities in the initial R&D phase. This problem is exacerbated when the work is done piecemeal—the $1.3 billion for one year’s upgrade work on the F-22 is considerably more than the entire cost of Sweden’s JAS 39C/D Gripen upgrade, including all R&D and delivery of 100 modification kits.


http://www.aviationweek.com/aw/generic/ ... ll&next=10


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Rotax
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Muy pero que muy interesante.
Me permito destacaros dos cositas que tienen que ver con uno de los temas de discusión que han dado lugar a las mas agrias polémicas en los hilos sobre los 4, 4+, +4, 5- y 5.
Son muy reveladoras,

Mauricio escribió:Buen artículo de AW:

Rivals Target JSF

Nov 30, 2010
By Bill Sweetman
London


It will also carry an internal infrared search-and-track (IRST) system, with Boeing calling IRST “the AESA of the 2010s” because of the technical improvements in newer systems. (The F-35 has an IRST function built into its electro-optical sensor, but advocates of a dedicated IRST say a scanning long-wave system outperforms a staring midwave sensor.) Boeing now says publicly that the Super Hornet “could be a bridge to the next airplane.”

The Rafale program is working in this area too, and French documents specify the work involves dealing with RCS-treated aircraft. It is likely that head-on RCS treatments invalidate the jet engine modulation technique for non-cooperative target recognition (NCTR), which relies on the characteristic return signal of a target’s spinning compressor blades.

Combat identification is a vital element in beyond-visual-range engagements, particularly for a stealth aircraft. Historically, rules of engagement have required the target to be identified either visually or by multiple means (for example, by radar NCTR and electronic surveillance). But if those means are degraded, a stealth fighter may be forced into its adversary’s detection range before launching weapons, which negates the advantage of stealth.

http://www.aviationweek.com/aw/generic/ ... ll&next=10


Muchas gracias por el artículo. Es muy interesante
Saludos


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Cuando puedan...
Podrían sacar una versión del artículo comentada/explicada para aeroburros.
Please!!! Please!!!


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