El J-20 Mighty Dragon - Caza Chino de 5º Generación

[RGSS]

RPT - New Chinese fighter jet expected by 2018: US intel

WASHINGTON, May 20 (Reuters) - China is building an advanced combat jet that may rival within eight years Lockheed Martin Corp's (LMT.N) F-22 Raptor, the premier U.S. fighter, a U.S. intelligence official said.
The date cited for the expected deployment is years ahead of previous Pentagon public forecasts and may be a sign that China's rapid military buildup is topping many experts' expectations.
"We're anticipating China to have a fifth-generation fighter ...operational right around 2018," Wayne Ulman of the National Air and Space Intelligence Center testified on Thursday to a congressionally mandated group that studies national security implications of U.S.-China economic ties.
"Fifth-generation" fighters feature cutting-edge capabilities, including shapes, materials and propulsion systems designed to make them look as small as a swallow on enemy radar screens.
Defense Secretary Robert Gates had said last year that China "is projected to have no fifth-generation aircraft by 2020" and only a "handful" by 2025.
He made the comments on July 16 to the Economic Club of Chicago while pushing Congress to cap F-22 production at 187 planes in an effort to save billions of dollars in the next decade.
Ulman is China "issues manager" at the center that is the U.S. military's prime intelligence producer on foreign air and space forces, weapons and systems. He said China's military was eyeing options for possible use of force against Taiwan, which Beijing deems a rogue province.
The People's Liberation Army, as part of its Taiwan planning, also is preparing to counter "expected U.S. intervention in support of Taiwan," he told the U.S.-China Economic and Security Review Commission.
He said the PLA's strategy included weakening U.S. air power by striking air bases, aircraft carrier strike groups and support elements if the U.S. stepped in.
Attacks against U.S. "basing infrastructure" in the western Pacific would be carried out by China's air force along with an artillery corps' conventional cruise missile and ballistic missile forces, he said outlining what he described as a likely scenario.
He described China as a "hard target" for intelligence-gathering and said there were a lot of unknowns about its next fighter, a follow-on to nearly 500 4th generation fighters "that can be considered at a technical parity" with older U.S. fighters.
"It's yet to be seen exactly how (the next generation) will compare one on one with say an F-22," Ulman told the commission. "But it'll certainly be in that ballpark."
Lockheed Martin, the Pentagon's No. 1 supplier by sales, is in the early stages of producing another fifth-generation fighter, the F-35. Developed with eight partner countries in three models with an eye to achieving economies of scale and export sales, it will not fly as fast nor as high as the F-22.
Gates has argued that the United States enjoys a lopsided advantage in fighters, warships and other big-ticket military hardware. Some U.S. congressional decisions on arms programs amount to overkill, out of touch with "real-world" threats and today's economic strains, he said in two speeches on the issue this month.
"For example, should we really be up in arms over a temporary projected shortfall of about 100 Navy and Marine strike fighters relative to the number of carrier wings, when America's military possesses more than 3,200 tactical combat aircraft of all kinds?" Gates said on May 8.
"Is it a dire threat that by 2020 the United States will have only 20 times more advanced stealth fighters than China?" he added at the Eisenhower presidential library in Abilene, Kansas.
Geoff Morrell, the Pentagon press secretary, discounted the gap between the timelines cited by Gates and Ulman. He declined to comment on whether China had made enough progress since last July to change intelligence on the next fighter's debut.
Richard Fisher, an expert on the Chinese military at the the private International Assessment and Strategy Center, said Gates' decision to end F-22 production is proving to be "potentially very wrong".
"We will need more F-22s if we are going to adequately defend our interests," he said in an interview on Thursday at the hearing.
Bruce Lemkin, a U.S. Air Force deputy undersecretary for ties to foreign air forces, told the commission he had visited Taiwan twice in his official capacity and that the capabilities of Taiwan's aging F-16s, also built by Lockheed, were not "keeping up."
Whether to meet Taiwan's request for advanced F-16 fighters or upgrade the old ones was still under review by the Obama administration, he said before Ulman spoke.




Debating the Performance Characteristics of a Non-Existent Chinese 5th Gen Fighter

In my formative years as an aspiring defense analyst, the military balance bean counting game was dominated by main battle tanks: how many could NATO field to meet a dreaded Warsaw Pact armored blitzkrieg across the North German Plain.
Today, the bean counting game is 5th generation fighters: how many we’ll have versus how many the Chinese will have. Of course all of this is based on some rather spurious projections because with our own constantly fluctuating Joint Strike Fighter program we don’t know for certain how many 5th gen fighters we’ll field in another decade, let alone how many the Chinese might be able to build.
We do know this: the number of 5th gen fighters in the Chinese inventory is zero.
U.S. aircraft manufacturers have wrestled with the complicated components of stealth, such as radar absorbent coatings and the complexities of the aircraft’s shape, for many decades. The F-22 program began in the 1980s; it was given Milestone I approval in 1986.
Yet, some assume China is on the cusp of mastering the complexities of stealth on an industrial scale. A recent Reuters story breathlessly claimed that China is developing a 5th generation fighter that “may rival within eight years Lockheed Martin Corp’s F-22 Raptor, the premier U.S. fighter.”
It’s based on testimony from Wayne Ulman of the Air Force National Air and Space Intelligence Center to the congressional U.S.-China Economic and Security Review Commission. “It’s yet to be seen exactly how (the next generation) will compare one on one with say an F-22,” Ulman told the commission. “But it’ll certainly be in that ballpark.”
Ulman’s prepared testimony was a bit more cautious: “a next-generation fighter (referred to as the XXJ) should be operational around 2018.”
The Reuters article goes on to say that this “intelligence” contradicts statements made by SecDef Robert Gates last year in front of the Economic Club Of Chicago that China is “projected to have no fifth generation aircraft by 2020,” and only “a handful” of them by 2025.
At the same commission hearing, RAND’s Roger Cliff said the only tangible evidence of a Chinese 5th gen aircraft are “photos of an alleged full scale mockup,” which have been around for some time. “The full-scale mockup photo suggested an aircraft with a reduced radar cross-section, though perhaps not in the class of the U.S. F-22 and F-35.”
Defense analyst and consultant Loren Thompson penned a recent piece in The Diplomat saying China is a long way from fielding an F-22 equivalent. “Not only does China lack the necessary experience or expertise in a number of relevant technologies, but it has never demonstrated the system-integration skills required to bring all those technologies together in a functioning airframe.”

He goes on:

“Because the US military has invested decades in understanding how adversaries might seek to foil the stealth features of its aircraft, it’s likely to figure out how to destroy or disable fifth-generation fighters long before the Peoples Liberation Army does. Despite its recent economic mis-steps, America still accounts for nearly half of all global military spending, and its investment in military technology is many times that of China. So not only will it probably find early answers to any tactical-aircraft challenge posed by China, but it already is devising fixes to vulnerabilities Chinese scientists may have identified in the F-22’s defences.”

– Greg Grant

Saludos

[Mod.5]

Todo sobre el J-20

realmente no tengo mucha confirmación de todos los detalles o rumores de este avión.

ls fotos iniciales y ahora videos es un primer paso por supuesto, pero aun falta mucho para pasar de algo mas que un prototipo volante a un sistema de armas integrado en una doctrina de combate.

[Mod.5]

Es una buena hipótesis y de hecho, no sorprendería que fuera así, realmente China no parece haber cumplido con la lista de tecnologías suficientes para desarrollar un avión 5th gen... los motores parecen ser una versión de los WS-10 del J-10, no parece haber elementos que confirmen una super maniobrabilidad, tampoco parece haber IRST y ciertamente es remota la posibilidad de que este ya listo un prototipo de radar AESA...

Desafortunadamente, es la propia naturaleza del aparato la que deberá dictar sus capacidades, yo, honestamente, no creo que se pudiera descartar una versión de producción del aparato.

Si alguien es hermético, por desgracia, y aún mas que los Rusos, es China y no tenemos los datos que nos hacen falta para determinar exactamente que es lo que pretenden cuando exponen a la luz pública a este aparato.

[Ave_Negra]

China es una máquina imparable. Van camino a convertirse en la próxima Unión Soviética en el campo militar e industrial.

Con un flujo constante de recursos, copy&paste de ideas y tecnología extranjeras, y posiblemente cientos ó miles de ingenieros, técnicos y diseñadores trabajando en los proyectos importantes, no hay forma en que puedan fracasar.

Ahora todos nos reímos de los chinos, porque si no fuese por las inversiones extranjeras, no exportarían más que fuegos artificiales y barras de acero, pero cada proyecto civil y militar de grandes proporciones, deja mucho conocimiento, mucha investigación y mucho desarrollo para China.

El J-20 quizás no sea la gran cosa, pero si resultase ser un fiasco, la próxima generación de ingenieros que trabaje en el J-21, ya va a saber que es lo que no hay que hacer, y los resultados van a ser cada vez mejores....con el J-22, 23, 24 lo importante es que no se detengan, y no lo están haciendo, más bien al contrario.

Por otra parte, no creo que se hayan quedado en el tiempo como los rusos, seguramente tienen laboratorios modernos llenos de equipos de última generación, hardware y software de última generación, en definitiva, una mejor base industrial y mejores condiciones para que los ingenieros hagan su trabajo. A simple vista, el primer prototipo chino está mucho más pulido que el primer prototipo ruso, y aunque soy bien consciente que esto no es un concurso de belleza, habla a las claras de quienes tienen más dinero en estos momentos para estas cosas.

Saludos!

[Bogdan-The-Kozak]

Las ultimas cosas que leí sobre el J-20 es que probablemente ciertas parte del avion sea copias o adaptaciones o ingeniosidades propias basadas tanto en el S-47 como en el MiG 1.44

Es un demonstrador de tecnologia, claramente inferior al T-50 y ni hablar del F-22 o F-35. Igual no deja de ser interesante. Con la velocidad de desarrollo que tiene China podriamos ver un posible 5ta generacion en unos 10-15 años. O quizas nos sorprendan antes los chinos.
Sea como sea, tienen que hacer algo con los motores... xD

[maximo]

Es un demonstrador de tecnologia, claramente inferior al T-50 y ni hablar del F-22 o F-35.

Por que es claramente inferior. Yo aventuro que es posible que asi sea, pero de ahi a decir "claramente" va un abismo. ¡Que seguros estais algunos de algunas cosas, redios!.

[Bogdan-The-Kozak]

Es un demonstrador de tecnologia, claramente inferior al T-50 y ni hablar del F-22 o F-35.

Por que es claramente inferior. Yo aventuro que es posible que asi sea, pero de ahi a decir "claramente" va un abismo. ¡Que seguros estais algunos de algunas cosas, redios!.

Por lo menos en motores, peso aproximado, aerodinámica y tecnologia stelth, apartenta ser un rejunte de ideas y tecnologias "apropiadas"

[Rotax]

Por lo menos en motores, peso aproximado, aerodinámica y tecnologia stelth, apartenta ser un rejunte de ideas y tecnologias "apropiadas"

¿Quieres decir "expropiadas"?
Saludos

[ASCUA]

Por lo menos en motores, peso aproximado, aerodinámica y tecnologia stelth, apartenta ser un rejunte de ideas y tecnologias "apropiadas"

¿Quieres decir "expropiadas"?

Quiere decir expropiadas inapropiadamente...
O sea robadas...

[Yorktown]

China's stealth technology may have come from downed U.S. fighter

BRUSSELS - Chinese officials recently unveiled a new, high-tech stealth fighter that could pose a significant threat to American air superiority — and some of its technology, it turns out, may well have come from the U.S. itself.

Balkan military officials and other experts have told The Associated Press that in all probability the Chinese gleaned some of their technological know-how from an American F-117 Nighthawk that was shot down over Serbia in 1999.

Sigue en:

http://www.news889.com/news/world/artic ... icials-say

[Bogdan-The-Kozak]

Por lo menos en motores, peso aproximado, aerodinámica y tecnologia stelth, apartenta ser un rejunte de ideas y tecnologias "apropiadas"

¿Quieres decir "expropiadas"?
Saludos

Si, exactamente. Mi español de vez en cuando falla :p

[Mauricio]

Noshir Gowadia, ex-empleado de Northrop Grumman, condenado a 32 años de prisión por espionaje a favor de la China. Ver párrafo en negritas... casi nada...

Department of Justice
Office of Public Affairs

FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE
Tuesday, January 25, 2011

Hawaii Man Sentenced to 32 Years in Prison for Providing Defense Information and Services to People’s Republic of China

Former B-2 Bomber Engineer Helped PRC Design Stealthy Cruise Missile

WASHINGTON – Noshir S. Gowadia, 66, of Maui, Hawaii, was sentenced late yesterday to 32 years in prison for communicating classified national defense information to the People’s Republic of China (PRC), illegally exporting military technical data, as well as money laundering, filing false tax returns and other offenses.

The sentence, handed down by Chief U.S. District Judge Susan Oki Mollway in the District of Hawaii, was announced by David Kris, Assistant Attorney General for National Security, and Florence T. Nakakuni, U.S. Attorney for the District of Hawaii.

On Aug. 9, 2010, following six days of deliberation after a trial spanning nearly four months in Honolulu, a federal jury found Gowadia guilty of five criminal offenses relating to his design for the PRC of a low-signature cruise missile exhaust system capable of rendering a PRC cruise missile resistant to detection by infrared missiles.

The jury also convicted Gowadia in three counts of illegally communicating classified information regarding lock-on range for infrared missiles against the U.S. B-2 bomber to persons not authorized to receive such information. The B-2 bomber is one of America’s most critical defense assets, capable of utilizing its stealth characteristics to penetrate enemy airspace and deliver precision guided weapons on multiple targets. Gowadia was also convicted of unlawfully exporting classified information about the B-2, illegally retaining information related to U.S. national defense at his home, money laundering and filing false tax returns for the years 2001 and 2002.

http://www.justice.gov/opa/pr/2011/Janu ... d-104.html

[Mr Stryker]

Se especula que esta máquina tendrìa un coste entre 50% y 80% más barato que cazas de quinta generación rusos y norteamericanos.

[faust]

especulacion bien especulativa porque todavia no esta en produccion...

[Mr Stryker]

especulacion bien especulativa porque todavia no esta en produccion...

Claro es un proyecto q todavia esta verde.
pero digamos q por el 2018 estaria en producción