Comparaciones y Curiosidades en Tanques II Guerra Mundial

Los Ejércitos del mundo, sus unidades, campañas y batallas. Los aviones, tanques y buques. Churchill, Roosevelt, Hitler, Stalin y sus generales.
alejandro_
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Unos extractos del libro de Karlheinz Munch "History of the 653 Heavy Tank Hunter Battalion" sobre el Jagdtiger:

A kampfgruppe from the 1/schwere Panzerjager Abteilung 653 under Oberleutnant Werner Haberband had success at Schifferstadt. Two American halftracks were swept completely off the road with one 12.8-centimeter round from the Jagdtiger of Oberfeldwebel Gustav Koss.



Un informe del comandante del batallón Rudolf Grillenberger, Febrero de 1945:

Training Status:

Training status for the 1st and 3rd Companies can be considered very good. Both companies have combat experience from the Russian Campaign, and some from the Italian Campaign. Even though combat experience with the Jagdtiger is still very limited, both companies have complete trust in the equipment.

The 2nd company has been reconstituted and arrived here on 23 January 1945. The cadre also consists of older, experienced soldiers. Classroom and technical training has been completed and is considered good.

...

Exceptional Problems:

In addition to the battalion's fragmentation mentioned above, with particular emphasis upon the fact that communication with these elements sometimes takes up to a week -there is also the problem of incredibly weak maintenance units.

In the combat areas we are lacking:

1) The entire maintenance Company, including the necessary lifting and recovering equipment.
2)Supply elements.

Maintenace squads and expedient measures were used during recovery and supply operations. Since this is the first time in combat for Jagdtigers, the recurring problem of damage in steering, transmission, final drives and main guns are even more disadvabtegous because of the above situation. Repairs are delayed, which weakens the trust the soldiers have in the usually outstanding vehicles. Vehicle drivers become anxious at the slightest problem, because expedient measures and exchanging parts in only a temporary measure, but not the solution to the problem. Pag (282-283).


Memorando escrito el 25 de Diciembrre de 1945 (pag 274):

Combat: Slow rate of fire (separate projectile and propellant casing. It is necessary to return to zero degree elevation after each round fired to unload the spent casing). This makes it necessary to employ a large number of Jagdtiger in an attack.

Strengths: Main gun has penetration power at 3500 meters. Attack dependent upon solid terrain terrain and good visibility. Mechanical losses at about 40%, therefore deploy only as a consolidated unit or defensive power will be too weak during enemy counterattacks.


Es interesante ver como las unidades blindadas mantuvieron hasta el final un gran número de tripulaciones veteranas mientras que la infanteria se desangró. En cuanto al Jagdtiger, era un vehículo muy fragil, y la idea de meter el 128mm no era muy incorrecta. Sorprende que la cadencia sea baja ya que contaba con 2 cargadores, pero claro, si hay que mover el cañón a 0°.

En los entrenamientos ocurre una anecdota esperpéntica. Cuando las tripulaciones llegan a la fábrica en Austria a recibir el entrenamiento se dan cuenta que nadie les puede enseñar correctamente porque allí se producía el modelo con suspensión Porsche, cuando la unidad tiene que utilizar el Henschel. Y los empleados de la fábrica son bastante críticos con el Henschel...

Saludos.

P.S A ver si la gente se anima a poner más extractos o comentarios de libros.


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ACB, el Mutie
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Leyendo un poco por el medio me he encontrado con esta cita (ya pondré más de este libro cuando comience a leerlo):

Sledgehammers: Strengths and Flaws of Tiger Tank Battalions in World War II, por Christopher W. Wilbeck.

Beginning on 9 July 1944, the battalion began counterattacking, reinforcing German defensive positions, and relieving encircled German strongpoints. These missions involved road marches across long distances and subsequently strined the mechanical reliability of the Tigers themselves. At 1000 hours on 9 July 1944, the battalion was ordered to conduct a road march to Deguciai, a distance of 50 kilometers. The battalion requested postponement of the movement until later in the day when it was cooler, but because the situation was critical and the battalion was urgently needed by the 205th Infatry Division, this request was denied.

Of the 22 Tigers that originally participated in the road march, only five Tigers from the 2d Company and Three Tigers from the 3d Company were combat Ready. This meant that 64 per cent of the Tigers broke down during a 50-kilometer roadmarch along a primary road.


Estamos hablando de 1944, con más de 2 años de pruebas para los Tigers y en 50km se quedan más de la mitad sin llegar, pero es que no es que fueran campo a traviesa, por una carretera principal.

Saludos


Tú dame el tanque y yo haré el resto ;)
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ACB, el Mutie
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Si Fadin era un fantasma... no se como a este no lo mandaron a la hoguera por lo que dijo. Su nombre es Nikolai Yakovlevich Zheleznov y cuenta como 2 Valentines destruyeron 3 Tigers (él no los conducía). Habla que sólo tenían cañones de 76mm entre sus tanques, por lo que no me queda claro si esos Valentines estaban modificados con cañones soviéticos o si usaban un 6 libras (el 2 libras ya lo descarto).

Primero habla de que el 76mm era efectivo a 500m contra el frontal de los Tigers, cuando en teoría (según las tablas), ni a 0m era posible penetrar su frontal. Sólo con un BR-350P (subcalibrado) a 500m tenía una penetración de 90mm, por lo que podemos considerar que en ese caso fuese suficiente. Sin embargo, también debemos suponer que los 2 Valentines enviados usaban esta misma munición.

There were bushes to the right of the road, but they weren't tallenough to conceal a T-34. Then the brigade commander, Colonel Fomichev, made the right decision. He was a very capable officer: it was no accident the men called him "Dad". He sent two of the low-profile Valentine tanks from out 7th Motorcycle Battalion, and they, using the bushes as cover, approached the Tigers to within 300-400 metres. By firing at their sides they destroyed two tanks, and then the third one.

Un 6 libras tenía una penetración de unos 80mm a 30º a 450m y considerando que los Tigers tienen 80mm en los laterales, es posible que lograran destruirlos. Si empleaban munición subcalibrada, no hay dudas de que sí, pero sino va muy justo todo. Incluso con el 76mm pasa igual, siempre hablando desde la teoría.

Saludos


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Sabíamos que los tanques franceses tenían mala fama entre los alemanes. Esta cita nos muestra con mayor claridad el por qué. Sacado de Panzer Truppen 1, por Thomas Jentz (página 132):

B. The enemy weapons effectiveness against our Panzers was low due to the poor ability to shoot from French tanks. Other than this, the effectiveness of the French 4-7 cm tank gun was very good. This gun penetrated all German Panzers on all locations at ranges up to 600 meters.

[...]

Even though penetration of French tanks was never achieved by the 2 cm tank gun, hits from bursts fired from the 2 cm tank gun frecuently caused the enemy crews to raise a white rag or to bail out and quit fighting.

[...]

Accuracy of the anti-tank guns: French 4.7 cm is good, the French 2.5 cm is very good, and the British 4 cm is excelent. Penetration ability of the enemy anti-tank guns at favorable angles against all German Panzers: The French 4.7 cm is very good up to range of 600 meters, the French 2.5 cm is very good up to a range of 400 meters (the frontal armor of the Pz.Kpf.III was cleanly penetrated by the 2.5 cm. Experimental tests against captured tanks demonstrated that the 2.5 cm anti-tank guan was superior to the German 3.7 cm PaK), the British 4 cm is excellent (better and more effective than the French 4.7 cm anti-tank gun) at ranges up to 800 meters. The British anti-tank rifle can possibly penetrate only the Pz.Kpfw.I or II at close ranges (little experience).


Y un poco fuera de este tema, un recuento de las bajas al final de Mayo de 1940:

101 Panzer 1, 150 Panzer II, 44 Panzer 35(t), 43 Panzer 38(t), 84 Panzer III, 63 Panzer III y 44 Pz.Bef.Wg.(armor artillery observation vehicle). Entre estas cifras están los que no se pudieron reparar en menos de 5 días y las pérdidas totales. Se enviaron 217 Panzers en reemplazo, lo cual supuso, junto con lo que ya había desplegado, una fuerza de ataque igual al 80% inicial.

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La poca eficiencia de los cañones de 37mm no era algo nuevo en el frente Este, sino que ya en Francia, estos cañones tenían serios problemas contra los Char B1 Bis o los Somua. Un extracto de un informe alemán respecto al tema:

At this time, several enemy R35 and B1 tanks appeared on the wood line southeast of the road. They were first spotted and reported by the 5.Kompanie. The Abteilung established a fire front and engaged the enemy with all guns firing. It was quickly determined that the stong French armor not only withstood hits from 2 cm Panzergranaten but also from the 3.7 cm and 7.5 cm Panzergranaten. Almost all of the hits rebounded. Even the new Panzergranate 40 was ineffective because the range was over 300 meters.

Estaba claro que el cañón corto de 75mm no era apropiado tampoco y la solución hubiera sido el disponer de cañones de 50mm L/42 o incluso los L/60 que hubieran sido muy apreciados por los carristas. De los cañones de 20mm ya ni hablamos, porque a pesar de poder dispararlos con rapidez y su bajo costo, estaba claro que no eran apropiados para la lucha anticarro, sobre todo porque los franceses tenían carros de combate bien protegidos.

Saludos

PD: Seguiremos...


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Habíamos dado cifras de pérdidas alemanas en mayo de 1940, pero un informe posterior cita:

Mayo - Junio

Panzer I: 142 - 40
Panzer II: 194 - 46
Panzer 35(t): 45 - 17
Panzer 38(t): 43 - 11
Panzer III: 110 - 25
Panzer IV: 77 - 20
Panzer.Bef: 38 - 31

Estas bajas son tanques totalmente destruídos o que no se pudieron reparar en campo. Son datos más fiables que los anteriores por el hecho de que son posteriores a los anteriores y más determinantes. Se puede ver como los tanques más ligeros fueron los más castigados.

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Dificultades de los Panzers en el desierto:

The average journey of 700 kilometers in the desert had a very adverse effect on Panzers.Up to the time that the regiment moved into position before Tobruk, the following Panzers had been delivered to the two workshops companies because of severe motor and suspension damage: 12 out of 45 Panzer I, 2 out of 3 kl.Pz.Bef.Wg., 19 of 45 Panzer II, 44 out of 65 Panzer III y gr.Pz.Bef.Wg., and 6 out 17 Panzer IV. In allo, 83 Panzers out of a total of 155.The reason the stretch of desert in Trigh el Abd caused so much damage to the tanks was the high speed which tactical reasons demanded. Because of the necessary haste, parts of the route unsuitable for tanks could not be avoided.

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Creo que hace tiempo había puesto un pequeño extracto de como atacaban los Panzer III a los T-34 según un libro Osprey (creo recordar). Ahora os pongo lo que venía en un informe alemán que nos muestra Jentz:

Our Panzer Tactics - Because the 5 cm Kw.K. can only be expected to penetrate the flanks of the T34 at short range, the following tactics have proven been to be correct in combating them:

a. Attract and tie down the opponent frontally by having a Pz.Kpfw.III take up the firefight. Choose a hull down position or drive in a zig-zag course to make it difficult for the opponent to hit the target.

b. At the same time, utilizing all available cover, two other Pz.Kpfw.IIIs attempt to circunvent the T34 to the right or left in order to gain a position in the flank or in the rear and knock him out at short range with Pzgr.40 fired at the hull or rear.

c. If a Pz.Kpfw.IV is available among our own Panzaers, it is to be employed in front of the opponent. The use of Nebelgranaten (smoke shells) can blind the T34 or aid the other Panzers in closing in. It is also possible that the opponent will think that the smoke is poison gas and break off the action.


Saludos


Tú dame el tanque y yo haré el resto ;)
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alejandro_
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Su nombre es Nikolai Yakovlevich Zheleznov y cuenta como 2 Valentines destruyeron 3 Tigers (él no los conducía). Habla que sólo tenían cañones de 76mm entre sus tanques, por lo que no me queda claro si esos Valentines estaban modificados con cañones soviéticos o si usaban un 6 libras (el 2 libras ya lo descarto).


Bueno, yo no le daría demasiada importancia. Puede haber miles de razones para contar algo así: el Panzer-IV era confundido muy a menudo con el Tigre. Y los años no pasan en balde, yo se de alguna persona mayor con demencia senil que decía ser banderillero.

Saludos.


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Impresionante el número de proyectiles disparados, vean:

Many of the MK.II "Matilda" infanty tanks had fallen victim to the 8.8 cm Flak guns of I./Flak-Regiment 33 which expended 1,680 rounds of 8.8 cm ammunition and claimed to have knocked aout 79 tanks.

Vale que habría más objetivos, pero no deja de ser una cifra bastante alta para una batalla.

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Unas pruebas realizadas en el desierto contra los Grant Británicos:

Effect of our weapons against the American Mark III (Pilot), known as the "Grant I" in a British manua:
a.Clean penetration of the side at a range of 500 meters when hit perpendicular to the surface by 5 cm Pzgr.38 rounds fired by the 5 cm Kw.K. L/42 or L/60.
b.Definitely determined to be penetrated from the front at a range of 200 to 300 meters by the 5 cm Kw.K L/60.
c.On 31 May, one Mark II (Matilda infantry tank) was knocked out at a range of 1400 meters by 7.5 cm Sondergranate rot (holow charge round) fired bt a Pz.Kpfw.IV.
d.Not a single penetration of the Mark III (American medium tank) was achieved at a range of 700 meters by any kind of 5 cm round.
2.Even when striking at sharp angles, peenetrations were achieved on the front of the Pz.Kpfw.III and Pz.Kpfw.IV at ranges from 1200 to 1400 meters.
b. Ot cleanly penetrated the front of the Pz.Kpfw.III withe additional armor (20 mm spaced armor in front of the 50 mm base plate) at a range of 500 to 600 meters.
3.Captured German 5 cm anti-tank guns penetrated the Pz.Kpfw.III with additional armor at ranges of 500 to 600 meters.
4.Exact data on the American tank can't be given since we haven't had time. A report will follow as soon as possible.


Saludos


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Para completar el análisis...

And from the 21.Panzer-Division:

Subject: M III "Pilot"
Armor on the front and the turret is about 80 mm thick, armor on the side is 40 mm thick. The turret is cast, hull riveted.

Effect of German armor-piercing weapons:
a.The 5 cm KwK. kurz (L/42) with Pzgr. penetrates the front at ranges under 600 meters and the sides at ranges under 800 meters.
[...]
Since the hull is riveted, every hit has on effect by knocking rivets loose that fly into the fighting compartment. The opponent is used to showing their flanks furing combat and continuously show their weak sides.
Weapons effectiveness for the "Pilot" tank:
a.The 3.7 cm tank gun in the turret is very goof in both its effect and accuracy. It is the same weapon that was previusly used in American tanks.
b.The accuracy of the 7.5 cm tank gun is average to good. The high-explosive shells have a very strong fragmentation effect. No experience with the armor-piercing rounds.


Teóricamente, el KwK38 L/42 a 500m y 30º penetraba 47-55mm (Pzgr39-40) y si decían que el Grant tenía sobre 80mm en el frente, podemos imaginarnos que la calidad del acero Americano era bastante pobre, pues la diferencia es muy grande.

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El Panzer IV es un carro poco analizado y a menudo no se hace mucho incapié, eclipsado por el Panther sobre todo. Aquí un pequeño extracto sobre los primeros Panzer IV con los cañones KwK40:

The Pz.Kpfw.IV Spezial shpuld not be used as a comand vehicle. However, it should be outfitted with both trasmitting and receiving radio sets.

[...]

It is difficult to observe fire fue to the muzzle flash and dst, especially in the deset.
Up to now, the long gun tube extending far past the front has not been a problem even in terrain cut through with many gullies.
Softer springs are desired for the suspension to reduce the rough impacts when driving in stony terrain.
Strengthen the armor plate on the turret roof and strengthen the superstructure. Installa a shot deflector on the turret roof to protect the commander's cupola.
[...]
It is the opinion of the troops that the P<.Kpfw.IV with the 7.5 cm Kw.K L/24 is not usable in tank versus tank battles in this theater of war.


Saludos


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Informe alemán sobre la resistencia de los tanques soviéticos en Barbarroja:

During the morning, the II.Abteilung/Panzer-Regiment 11 together with Kampfgruppe von Seckendorff advanced along the right-hand march route. Throughout the day both units fought off repeated attacks from the Russian 2nd Armored Division. Unfortunately, the Russian 52 ton heavy tanks showed that it was almost insensitive to hits from the 10.5 cm. Several hits from a 15 cm gun were ineffective and bounced off. However, continuous attacks by several Pz.Kpfw.IV managed to knock out a large number of tanks throughout the day, which allowed our own attack to again drive forward to about three kilometers west of Dubysa.

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Un enfrentamiento contra los pesados KV-2:

The opponent in battalion strength holding the area east of the rail line was thrown back toward Tschernikowo havin suffered heavy losses. At 1200 hours, four heavy enemy tanks (52 tons) appeared from the south side of Tschernikowo and fired at the Abteilung from long range. A short time later, two additional enemy tanks appeared on the rail line about one kilometer north east of the Popowka train station and charged into the firefight. Our gun fire remained totally inefective. The opponent destroyed a Pz.Kpfw.38(t) and a Pz.Kpfw.IV. Ater this firefight, the tanks pulled back to Tschernikowo. After a short time they again fired at the Abteilung. By the concentrated fire of the entire Abteilung, the tanks pulled back behind the houses in Tschernikowo. A scouting patrol of the leiche Zug, carried out partially on foot, reported that tanks and elements of Russian infantry were still in the eastern part of Tschernikowo.

Our own losses were one dead, three wounded, a Pz.Kpfw.IV totally destroyed, and a Pz.Kpfw.38(t) damaged. A heavy Russian 52 ton tank was captured.


Saludos

PD: ¿A alguien le interesa todo esto que estoy poniendo?
Última edición por ACB, el Mutie el 15 Mar 2009, 13:09, editado 1 vez en total.


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