Comparaciones y Curiosidades en Tanques II Guerra Mundial

[ACB, el Mutie]

En el 5º reporte, me voy a ceñir a las partes que considero más interesantes y obviaré los movimientos de unos pueblos a otros.

Major Repairs

After the battle group had been prepared, 14 Ferdinands were worked on again, and were to be generally repaired with all changes made. To carry out these repairs, the most varied parts are still lacking. News is received that the trains will these parts departed from Germany, but whether they will arrive on time, or are even still en route to here, seemed questionable. On the other hand, we had to be able under any conditions, within 5 or 6 days, to make these Ferdinands mobile somehow. Thus, it was ordered by the Regiment commander to prepare some vehicles, if necessary, with used parts to the extent that they could move, in order to be loaded.

The next 13 Sturmpanzer approached their completion. What with the intention to evacuate the repair services, these repairs are to be regarded as fast, and not as general repairs. These repair services also move out on the 19th and 20th. For new housing of the major repair service, reconnaissance in the direction of Krivoi Rog-Kirovograd is begun early. For the most part, these villages are overfilled, and space for a major repair service is not to be found.

After the orders were given by the Army Group and Panzer A.O.K. 1 for the future action of the Regiment at the Spereshie bridgehead, new reconnaissance was undertaken, as advised by the defense Command in Dniepropetrovsk, in the direction of Nikopol, as there were big buildings there.

Y continua el texto con algunos datos más:

The transport of the available 42 Ferdinands (8 of them are in action) will cause difficulties, since apparently the obtaining of the necessary Syms wagons will cause difficulties. For this purpose, the land route from Dniepropetrovsk to Spereshie was scouted, and strngthening of the bridge was discussed with the army engineers.

Para el siguiente día, pondré algo del "Informe 7" (es la numeración que le dieron en el libro). Del 6 no tengo nada que comentar.

Saludos

[alejandro_]

A big mistake of ours is that the enemy guns and tanks are left standing, instead of being brought to safety or destroyed by a recovery or destruction troops. For example, when 45 tanks were in no man's land in the evening, some 20 are missing in the morning; the Russians have taken them with their towing tractors at night. The tanks that were shot down last summer and left there came back into their hands during the winter! In several weeks, perhaps 50 v.H. are runing again, and we ask ourselves where so many come from, that costs work and blood. For example, in our first action, shot-down Russian tanks were left standing, also guns and antitank guns, cometimes intact and with ammunition, the mines lay in layers. The front had to be taken again, and everything came back into their hands. It was the same here tii; The American tanks were all left standing. We should have thought of taking the things as raw material; the new weapons can be reused as raw material (which is often hard for us to get), and good raw material for the making of new heavy weapons, a thousand tons could be briught in like that, and the enemy would have lost the chance to cover his losses by repairs or scavenging in a short time. There are already scrap collecting stations, but it could be carried on more intensively; empty trucks are sometimes at statins for a long time; they could meanwhile have been loaded. As I heard, all briken-down Ferdinands should be recovered by our Abteilung. They arrived rather late and are too few; whenever we needed more of them, we would have made progress; we hope the new type is soon ready for production. I have not been able to find a place.

Otherwise I am doing well, and I also hope the General is healthy again

(signed) Uffz. Boehm.

Comparando este informe me doy cuenta que aparece en un libro que tengo. La traducción varía un poco:

“A large error on our part is letting enemy gun and tanks remain on the battlefield instead of employing special units to either recover or destroy them. If for example, 45 tanks remain in no-man’s-land overnight, then 20 of them are missing the next morning. The Russians will have recovered them with half-tracks during the night. The tanks we destroyed last summer and left on the battlefield felt into Russian hands again this winter. In several weeks, perhaps 50 of them will be operational again, and we wonder where all those Russian tanks come from. This costs us work and blood. During our first operation, for example, all knocked out Russian tanks remained in place, as did the guns and antitank guns, some of them intact and with ammunition. The dug up mines remained out in the open. When the front had to be withdrawn, everything fell back into Russian hands.

It was the same here. The American tanks remained in place. We should consider recovering those items as raw materials to create new weapons. This would give us the means to acquire good raw materials (which are often so hard for us to obtain) for production of new heavy weapons. Thousand of tons could be brought in this way while depriving the enemy of recovering their losses in a short time though repairs or cannibalization. There are already scrap-metal collections, but this could be pursued more intensively. Empty rail cars sometimes sit at station for long periods, when they could be filled in the interim.

The combat history of German Heavy Anti-tank Unit 653, de Karlheinz Munch (página 54).

The transport of the available 42 Ferdinands (8 of them are in action) will cause difficulties, since apparently the obtaining of the necessary Syms wagons will cause difficulties.

Lo mismo ocurría con los Tigre-I.

Saludos.

[ACB, el Mutie]

Muy interesantes las similitudes. Parece que no copian todo tal cual o al traducir hacen modificaciones.

Mientras tanto, sigamos:

RE: Cooperation with "Ferdinand" and Sturmpanzer vehicles.

To achieve a successful cooperation between infantry and Ferdinand tanks, one must be clear about several deails of these overly heavy vehicles:

1) The Ferdinand has a weight of 75 tons. It is therefore more ponderous that the tiger on the battlefield. Approach and readiness, as well as attack terrain, require more careful scouting than for use of the Tiger.

2) The remendous weight of the tank makes the smallest repairs more difficult. For example, to change a track, one needs a heavy winch to lift the tank. It is amost impossible to undertake repairs to the tank on the battlefield and under enemy fire. The breakdown of a Ferdinand close to the enemy is threfore a very disagreeable situation. If this happens within the terrain occupued or dominated by fire from the enemy, the tank must usually be blown up. In the attack on Kursk, numerous Ferdinands, which had pushed far into the enemy and been separated fromt he infantry by massed enemy artillery fire, were lost in this way. In addition, the engines of the Ferdinands, with the great weight of the tank, hold out for only a very short distance. In the Ferdinands that have seen action in this combat area, the engines have been far overstressed, and thus very prone to a breaking down.

3) The Ferdinand has only its cannon as armament. In a field of enemy infantry, it is exposed quite helplessly, without MG and 2 cm cannon, to the approach of enemy destroyer troops. The gun is not fully traversable in its turret. If the tank wants to fire to the left or right it must turn itself, which requires much time because of its ponderousness. Also, the great dead angle of some 200 meters proves very unfavorable in such a situation. The Ferdinand tank is therefore fully unsuitable for moving into the enemy alone.

4) The Ferdinand tank is a powerful structure that, as soon as it appears on the battlefield, attracts the heaviest enemy fire from all siders. It is impossible to let infantry ttak along with these tanks. It inevitable is stopped, with heavy losses, in the fire directed at the tanks.

Para el próximo día pondré la segunda parte donde describe las ventajas o cosas favorables del Ferdinand.

Saludos

[ARMADILLO_313]

Buenos dias,

Creo que ya lo he dicho en varias ocasiones....no entiendo esto de copiar por copiar el libro que se esta leyendo en ese momento...
Entiendo que se usen citas cuando son necesarias para aclarar algun tema....pero es que esto ya lo veo excesivo.
Primero por que si el hilo se llama "Comparacion de tanques.." ahora mismo no se que se esta comparando...con que estais comparando el Ferdinand/Elefant ?? Con el Pzkpf III de los extractos que se copiaron en la pagina anterior??? O con los carros japoneses de la anterior ???
Por otro lado no encuentro muy interesante este copiar por copiar puesto que cada uno copia lo que le interesa y tal vez se este saltando otras cosas que si podrian ser interesantes...por lo que el copiar por copiar poco valor tiene.

Por ultimo decir que este es un foro de habla hispana (creo) y me parece una falta de correccion la copia de textos, bastante extensos en ocasiones, en otros idiomas (ingles en este caso). No es mi caso (al menos con el ingles) pero si que se hay foristas que no dominan el ingles. Seguro que habra muchos mas....
Que pasaria si alguien se pusiera a copiar textos en...digamos aleman, o mejor aun en cirilico ???? Que el ingles sea una de las lenguas mas comunes no quiere decir que la entienda todo el mundo....y menos aun en un foro de habla hispana...no?

Un saludo

[ACB, el Mutie]

Primero por que si el hilo se llama "Comparacion de tanques.." ahora mismo no se que se esta comparando...

Si quieres se le quita el "comparación" y arreglado.

Por otro lado no encuentro muy interesante este copiar por copiar puesto que cada uno copia lo que le interesa y tal vez se este saltando otras cosas que si podrian ser interesantes...por lo que el copiar por copiar poco valor tiene.

Pues hay otra gran cantidad de hilos que puedes leer en vez de leer este.

Por ultimo decir que este es un foro de habla hispana (creo) y me parece una falta de correccion la copia de textos, bastante extensos en ocasiones, en otros idiomas (ingles en este caso). No es mi caso (al menos con el ingles) pero si que se hay foristas que no dominan el ingles. Seguro que habra muchos mas....

Pues en otros foros tienen esas normas, aquí está permitido el uso de textos en otros idiomas, pues yo me expreso en español a excepción de las citas. Según tu explicación, es mejor que no ponga un texto si lo voy a poner en otro idioma. Pues respondo: si no lo entiendes, usa un traductor o no lo leas, pero no prives a otros de que puedan leerlo.

Y con este inciso, sigo:

On the other hand, the Ferdinand tank has the following good qualities:

a) The armor is so heavy that enemy fire up to 12.2 cm has little effect on it. In the combat around the Sporoshie bridgead, no Ferdinand has as yet fallen to enemy fire. But one tank that had ventured too far into the enemy infantry field alone was blown up by the Russian tank destroyer troop.

b) The Ferdinand has a cannon with incredible firing capacity. It shoots any T 34 or K.W. 1 to pieces at the greatest range.

c) Along with Sturmpanzer that fire 15 cm shells directly at short ranges with destructive effect, both types of tanks can provide the strongest and most destructive fire.

When one considers these advantages and disadvantages of the Ferdinand and Sturmpanzer, one comes to the following conclusion for their cooperation with infantry:

1) These tanks are not infantry escort tanks. They must be left by the advancing infantry, and affect the area of the attacking infantry with their fire, which is still effective at long ranges. The staying of the infantry in the presumed cover of the large tanks is destructive, and usually ends with heavy losses.

2) When penetrating the enemy, the Ferdinands and Sturmpanzer are accompanied purposefully by their own Panzer III and IV tanks, which use their mobile fire to keep close attacks of enemy infantry away from the Ferdinands. Where M.T.W. units are available, they accompany the Ferdinands attacks more purposefully.

3) When the infantry advances boldly under the tremendously heavy fire cover of the Ferdinand and Sturmpanzer, and covers their penetration points with concentrated fire; then the infantry can reckon with some assurance on a successful attack. Prerequisites for such success is, of course careful reconnaissance and conferring as to terrain, beginning, and course of the attack between the leaders of the Ferdinands and the infantry before the attack begins.

Tras este texto, el comandante añade una breve despedida. Próximamente más.

Saludos

[alejandro_]

Que pasaria si alguien se pusiera a copiar textos en...digamos aleman, o mejor aun en cirilico ???? Que el ingles sea una de las lenguas mas comunes no quiere decir que la entienda todo el mundo....y menos aun en un foro de habla hispana...no?

Como ya ha comentado ACB, en otros foros ha habido problemas similares, y al final el resultado es el mismo: los textos no se publican ni en inglés ni en español. El copiar citas ya lleva su tiempo, y si encima hay que hacer la traducción lleva el doble. Un traductor "online" da un resultado aceptable y siempre se puede preguntar en el foro. Yo mismo lo he hecho, y no con texto en inglés sino en ruso. Claro que para ello hay que estar dispuesto a invertir cierto tiempo.

Creo que ya lo he dicho en varias ocasiones....no entiendo esto de copiar por copiar el libro que se esta leyendo en ese momento...
Entiendo que se usen citas cuando son necesarias para aclarar algun tema....pero es que esto ya lo veo excesivo.

En mi caso lo veo útil, porque las citas con la fuente van a mi base de datos, y puedo utilizarlas en cualquier debate.

Saludos.

[ARMADILLO_313]

Buenas noches,

Gracias ACB por la demostracion de prepotencia...PPT, recuerdas? ya me parecia a mi...

"Creo" que los hilos no tienen dueño, parece ser que este si, es tuyo, por que ese "con quitarle el comparacion arreglado" y el "Pues hay otra gran cantidad de hilos que puedes leer en vez de leer este"....lo deja claro... pero vaya, ya que sacas el tema....que hilo puedo leer ya que me interesan los carros de combate??? El de "Los panzer un mito" (gran trabajo japa)...cual mas?? Ah si..calidad de corazas? No, espera ese tambien esta lleno de copia copia....bueno puedo leer tambien el de "libros imprescindibles"....

En cuanto al tema del idioma...gracias a Dios no necesito el traductor online, al menos de ingles, pero repito que hay gente que no domina el ingles....lo que pase en otros foros...la verdad no me importa. Yo no niego que se citen frases o parrafos, Dios me libre, pero si son citas usadas como aclaraciones (como deberian usarse, al menos asi pienso) no son tan extensas, con lo que se pueden traducir por el que postea e incluirlas con el texto original para que todo el mundo se entere.
En cuanto al "si no lo entiendes, usa un traductor o no lo leas, pero no prives a otros de que puedan leerlo"....Te repito que yo SI lo entiendo a la perfeccion por lo que NO me hace falta traductor y eres tu el que niegas a otros que puedan leerlo, mejor dicho, entenderlo...

En cuanto a la utilidad alejandro, perdona que difiera, puesto que es, o puede ser, util leer toda la informacion que da un libro...pero leer lo que una persona cree que puede ser interesante me da una informacion incompleta.

En fin lo dejo, que si no alguno dira que es off-topic..........

Un saludo

[alejandro_]

En cuanto a la utilidad alejandro, perdona que difiera, puesto que es, o puede ser, util leer toda la informacion que da un libro...pero leer lo que una persona cree que puede ser interesante me da una informacion incompleta

Precisamente para eso se da la referencia. Esta claro que el libro no puede ser reproducido integramente. Si alguien quiere profundizar o piensa que la información es parcial, siempre puede preguntar por el libro o directamente, comprarlo. Yo ya he comprado libros gracias a citas puestas en foros.

Saludos.

[ACB, el Mutie]

Como había dicho, en el libro "Eastern Front Combat" de la editorial Stackpole, Alfred Regeniter nos contaba sus hazañas en la II Guerra Mundial. En una de sus páginas se enfrenta a un T-34 a 100m con su Stug III con cañón largo:

I gave the order: "Distance 100 meters, armor-piercing shell. Let me do the aiming." I pushed the head of the gunner out of the way. "Now do you see what I'm looking at? Fire!" And a T-34 exploded in flames.

Hasta aquí todo normal, a 100m es sencillo para el 75mm L/48, penetrar a un T-34. Sin embargo...

With my heart still beating for joy, I made out an even bigger mass to the right of the exploding tank. "Man, it's a Josef Stalin! Same distance, armor-piercing shell. Fire!" And... bounce! The tracer, fiercely shaken, continued it trajectory in a different direction. Four shells ended up like that.

A 100m, el StuK 40 L/48 debería penetrar tanto como el Kw.K.40 L/48, es decir, un poco más de 100mm a 30º. Posiblemente, en los 4 o 5 disparos que rebotaron, el glacis fue el objetivo, por lo que se puede comprender que los disparos no penetraran al haber 90-120mm inclinados 60º de la vertical (suponemos también que era un IS-2 de 1944 con el blindaje "corregido"). Para destruirlo, disparó al anillo de la torre, donde dice que al cabo de unos segundos, el tanque explotó, lanzando trozos hasta 100m de distancia.

Un poco más tarde aparece otro tanque enemigo:

Distance 800, armor-piercing shell, target ... Now let me aim ... Fire!" A T-34 exploded with a loud bang and bright fireworks.

Otros informes en Panzertruppen hablaban de penetraciones a 1000m, 1200m y 1600m de distancia efectuados por un Panzer IV y sobre cualquier parte del tanque. Es comprensible que a 800m lo consiguiera. Lo más impactante es que era de noche y acertó sin ningún tipo de visor nocturno.

Más adelante, reciben varios "Panzer IV/70" (Jagdpanzer IV), pero no especifica que él pase del Stug III al Jagpanzer IV, por lo que cuando cuenta:

The village was spread out in front of us about 1,000 meters away. With a great deal of luck, I killed a JS-122 and a SU-85 between the houses.

... nos entran las dudas de qué cañón ha usado para tal fin (tampoco especifica la parte impactada del IS-2). Con el StuK40, las probabilidades son bastante malas, incluso en los laterales (90mm), sin embargo, el PaK 42 L/70 del jagdpanzer IV no debiera tener problemas, sólo en el frontal por la gran inclinación.

Saludos

[alejandro_]

Como había dicho, en el libro "Eastern Front Combat" de la editorial Stackpole, Alfred Regeniter nos contaba sus hazañas en la II Guerra Mundial. En una de sus páginas se enfrenta a un T-34 a 100m con su Stug III con cañón largo:

Muy interesante ACB.

A 100m, el StuK 40 L/48 debería penetrar tanto como el Kw.K.40 L/48, es decir, un poco más de 100mm a 30º. Posiblemente, en los 4 o 5 disparos que rebotaron, el glacis fue el objetivo, por lo que se puede comprender que los disparos no penetraran al haber 90-120mm inclinados 60º de la vertical (suponemos también que era un IS-2 de 1944 con el blindaje "corregido"). Para destruirlo, disparó al anillo de la torre, donde dice que al cabo de unos segundos, el tanque explotó, lanzando trozos hasta 100m de distancia.

Tambien depende de cómo impacte el proyectil, no es lo mismo a 90° que a 60° de desviación lateral.

Saludos.

[ACB, el Mutie]

Este es el penúltimo post sobre el Ferdinand de Spielberger. El informe 8 da la vida útil de los motores (aproximada) y los problemas principales que daba este cazacarros pesado.

Repairs:
The Regiment determines that at this time the main damage is to gasoline engines, tracks, and running gear.

Motors:
The performance ability of the engines is some 800 kilometes. After this distance the motrs are chot, and must be replaced or repaired. The motors newly installed in mid-September have already covered 500 to 700 km, so that the Regiment simply needs about 90 motos urgently and immediately for the 48 Ferdinands on hand; otherwise all the vehicles will break down. This will be impossible with the present motor shortage in the Reich, so that the overhauling of the motors must be done on the spot. With lasting front movement, and the resulting constant transfers of motor repair services, no other solution is possible.

Tras esto, hay una nota sobre los problemas de las entregas de motores:

It is to be hoped that this necessary material is now coming on a Ju 52. Since here not one replacement motor is on hand anymore, the motor damage occurring almost daily can no longer be repaired - these vehicles will now break down one and for all.

Saludos

[ACB, el Mutie]

Vamos a cerrar el tema del Ferdinand (luego le toca al Jagdtiger):

Tracks and Running Gear

The tracks that were finally delivered are catastrophically bad.

Links break every day. On a march of 40-50 km, 11 to 14 track breakages are no rarity. Completely new tracks are in view for November. It is necessary, as the new tracks are extraordinarily urgently needed.

Track damage in action can lead to the blowing up of the whole vehicle.

The faulty tracks also damage the running gear, so that this is often seriously involved, along with the track problem.

In the last days the enemy, now that he has learned that he cannot defear the armor of the Ferdinand, fires almost exclusively at the running gear. This causes a particulary great need for these parts. For example, of 15 Ferdinands, ten are being repaired just for running gear damage. At this time several railroad cars of spare parts are en route, and should reach the Regiment in the next days, as a result of track damage in the Kolinnen area.

The urgent need of motors is unaffected by this. It can only be dealt with by immediate shipping of spare motor parts and necessary tools, so that the Regiment is in a position ot carry out these repairs itself.

Sturmpanzer:

Major Kahl has personally reported on the Sturmpanzer situation and delivered the report of the Regiment.

Meanwhile, the Regiment has already sent 14 Sturmpanzer on the march to Vienna; this was necessary, since no fewer than 32 defective Sturmpanzer are standing around here that, in the many backward movements, were in danger of being blown up, or failing into enemy hands for lack of transport.

At this time only three Sturmpanzer are also en route, so that it is to be hoped that, in the foreseeable time, ten of this Abteilun's weapons can be briught into action.

Once again, a general overhauling of this Abteilung at a suitable place must be urged. The question itself has been discussed at length with the appropriate offices by Major Kahl.

Success

In the last day the Regiment has again contributed considerably to strengthening the defensive front. The Regiment's action has become a symbol for friend and foe.

The Regiment's success from 7/5 to 11/5/1943 (ojo que primero va el mes y luego el día), thus through four months, adds up:

585 tanks
344 antitank guns
133 guns
103 antitank rifles
3 aircraft
3 armored scout cars
3 assault guns.
+-12.000 soldiers killed.

Y hasta aquí los informes del Ferdinand (y del Elefant, que son Ferdinands moficados).

Saludos

[ACB, el Mutie]

El Jagdtiger tuvo una producción con una dura competencia. Porsche es famoso en los proyectos de tanques, sobre todo por perder contra Henschel en el diseño del Tiger I o en el Tiger II (torre). En el Jagdtiger, Porsche hizo proposiciones para ahorrar 1 metro cuadrado de espacio y 404.000 Marcos Alemanes (RM) gracias a su diseño. Se hicieron unas pruebas en las que el el tren de roadje de Porsche daba una acceleración mala, por lo que el echaron la culpa a las cadenas. Se cambiaron por otras (las mismas que el Ferdinand). Sin embargo, los resultados fueron malos otra vez, ganando Henschel el pulso:

The ensuing tests showed the same unacceptable shaking of the suspension, which lasted until the Porsche running gear attained a speed of 14 to 15 km/h on a flat road.

La velocidad indicada en el manual es de 41,5km/h (usando el tren de rodaje de Henschel).

Saludos

PD: Running Gear es lo que llamamos tren de rodaje en español, ¿no? De no leer casi en español, tengo dificultad para traducir algunos nombres. Sorry.

[ACB, el Mutie]

Sobre el Zimmerit ya habíamos hablado algo. Me parece interesante resaltar la fecha en la que se ordenó aplicar Zimmerit sobre el Jagdtiger:

On September 9, 1944, the OKH gave the order to apply "Zimmerit" coatings to all armored vehicles"

También podemos indicar, que los Jagdtigers sufrieron muchas averías, pero tenemos que tener en cuenta todos los factores, no sólo el diseño:

Because of difficulties in track production, some Jagdtiger, which were assigned to Panzerjägerabteilung 512, received old type tracks in March 1945.

Las nuevas cadenas reducían el número de dientes de las cadenas de 18 a 9, haciéndolas más duraderas. Teniendo en cuenta el gran peso, esto era bastante importante. Ya en el Ferdinand veíamos que se quejaban de la falta de suministro de cadenas, porque se rompían por el uso, debido al gran peso del Ferdinand.

La división 653 de Cazacarros readctó lo siguiente sobre el uso del Jagdtiger (cuando hablan del peso se pasan 5tn):

Armament and mobility og the Jagdtiger require firm level open country.

Jagdtiger is dependent on bridges, since deep ravines and brooks strain teh cahssis and drive too much (gearbox, weight 80 tons).

Particulary difficulties with the Porsche running gear (Abteilung has seven Jagdtiger Porsche, the others have Henschel chassis).

Mañana continuaré con esto.

Saludos

[ACB, el Mutie]

Y la sgeunda parte...

1. Strong jolts from two-part tracks, with the cannon thrown out of adjustment. The running gear was suspended too stiffly.
2. Track ground contact of the box running gear withh simple road wheels causes lateral overburdening of the tracks in rough (stony, rutted, winding roads) terrain, and leads to bending of tracks or breaking of track bolts.
3. Special running-gear parts, as well as our own offroad or loading tracks, make maintenance and repairs difficult.

Action: Slow rate of fire (shells and cartridges, necessity of zero setting after every shot for reloading) requires great numbers of Jagdtiger for an attack.

Strength: Cannon with penetrating power at 3500 meters. Attack depends on firm ground, far sight. breakdowns about 40%, thus action only with full Abteilung, otherwise defensive power against enemy counterattacks is too meager.

Saludos