Comparaciones y Curiosidades en Tanques II Guerra Mundial

[ACB, el Mutie]

Las curiosidades de este libro son bastantes, aunque sólo resaltaré unas pocas. Una que me ha parecido interesante es la cantidad de material necesario para fabricar un Panther I y un Tiger II

Concepto---------------Panther - Tiger II
Acero sin aleación (kg)----33.409 - 44.009
Acero aleado (kg)----------44.060 - 75.789
Total de acero (kg)--------77.469 - 119.798
Planchas gruesas y medias--30.735 - 62.976
Planchas finas (kg)--------1.888 - 2.248

Saludos

[ACB, el Mutie]

Cuando se habla del Panther, se suele decir que los problemas en los motores se terminaron pronto tras unos pequeños ajustes. El Tiger II, equipado con el mismo motor, todavía tenía problemas, como así lo demostró durante su etapa de preproducción:

While the tanks were in action, serious damage constantly occurred in the Maybach powerplants, leading in many cases to the total breakdown of the tanks.

[...]

The conecting-rod bearings had buildups of carbon and iron oxide, plus lens and pipe buildups. The blend of lead and bronze also had been made with too little lead and too much phosphorus.

Se instalaron mejoras, sobre todo en la ventilación y se consiguieron mejores resultados, pero no definitivos (algunos llegaron a más de 2000km sin averías):

At another showing, 28 Type "HL 230" motors were shown, 26 of them dismantled. It was found that insufficient ventilation had been provided fot the cooling system, which led to air bubbles. Of the 26 dismantled motors, 23 showed damage to the big-end bearings. Above all, crankcase bearings 5 and 6 were affected.

Aquí termino con el libro.

Saludos

[alejandro_]

Un placer tenerte de vuelta Alberto.

Foto de un Panther en el frente este (Diciembre de 1943). Proablemente se trate de un modelo D o una versió A temprana:



Saludos.

[ACB, el Mutie]

alejandro_, se sabe el calibre de los impactos? 76,2mm o 45mm?

Estoy empezando a leer algunos Panzer Tracts y el primero trata sobre el 88mm FlaK en el rol antitanque (montados en vehículos o independientes). Me ha llamado la atención de uno de los informes que pone Jentz (más adelante pondré más info del libro):

Summary Results of the activities of the 2.Batterie/Flak-Regiment 701 in the Cholm area during the period of 2 to 5 September 1941

[...]

This report is unique in providing details of the range and number of rounds that it took for each tank kill claimed. A total of 117 8.8 Pzgr. rounds were expended to knock out four KW I and eight T 34 tanks, an average of 10 rounds per tank. This is a much higher expenditure than would be predicted by a simple assessment of the inherent accuracy and penetrating ability of the 8.8 cm Flak L/56 against these targets.

Veremos más adelante que hay informes que afirman haber penetrado tanques a +2000m y otros en los que citan que algunos disparos rebotaban (pero no especifica si eran los de 88mm o los de 20mm que acompañaban a la batería pesada).

Saludos

[ACB, el Mutie]

Este libro trae información sobre combates contra carros franceses (páginas 27-29 el texto que voy a extraer). Tras el combate examinaron a los tanques franceses (18tn = Somua, 32tn = Char B1 Bis):

Examination of the targets during the morning of 18 May revealed that the Flak commanded by Haas had destroyed the frontal armor of an 18 ton tank. The entry hatch was sprung open and a radio and other internals destroyed. The crew had managed to get out of the tank.

A second 18 ton tank in the immediate vicinity did not have any damage but was abandoned in running condition. Apparently the crew had been totally demoralized by the Flak fire and abandoned their tank. This tank was captured on 18 May and after a test drive was turned over to a Leutnant in the Panzertruppe.

The 32 ton tank, engaged by the 8.8 cm Flak commanded by Rau, had been penetrated in the lower rear hull. The projectile had destroyed the engine and must have caused an internal explosion. The crew had gotten away.

The fourth tank (32 tons), engaged by the guns under Roeger and Fallenbacher, was penetrated on the right side by 8.8 cm hits in the rear drive sprocket and forward at the height of the gunner's seat by the 4.7 cm gun. It was totally burned out and the inside completely wrecked by explosions of almost all of the 4.7 cm and 7.5 cm shells. The crew were burned.

Saludos

[alejandro_]

alejandro_, se sabe el calibre de los impactos? 76,2mm o 45mm?

No lo se, pero esa es la impresión viendo las fotos.

Estoy empezando a leer algunos Panzer Tracts y el primero trata sobre el 88mm FlaK en el rol antitanque (montados en vehículos o independientes). Me ha llamado la atención de uno de los informes que pone Jentz (más adelante pondré más info del libro):

Este tema se discutió en tank-net. Parece que los 88mm necesitaban bastante munición para destruir completamente los carros enemigos.

Saludos.

[ACB, el Mutie]

Este tema se discutió en tank-net. Parece que los 88mm necesitaban bastante munición para destruir completamente los carros enemigos.

Desconozco a las conclusiones que se ha llegado en tanknet, pero supongo que uno de los factores más determinantes era el entrenamiento. Las baterías antiaéreas recibían un buen entrenamiento antiaéreo, pero no tan beno para disparo a tierra. En ciertas ocasiones ha habido bajas propias por no distinguir la silueta del tanque objetivo.

El libro no dejaba el informe libre de una crítica al respecto:

But this type of success against French tanks was the exception and not an ordinary occurrence. Flakregiment 102, assigned to Guderian's XIX.Armee-Korps, reported the following kills achieved by the Flakartillerie during the period from 9 May to 26 May 1940. le.Flak-Abt.92 - 44 aicraft; I.Abt./Flak-Rgt.36 - 28 aircraft, 3 tanks, 9 bunkers, 5 machinegun nests; I.Abt./Flak-Rgt.18 - 27 aicraft, 2 tanks; II.Abt./Flak-Rgt.38 - 23 aicraft, 4 tanks; le.Flack-Abt.71 - 24 airraft, 1 bunker, 8 machinegun nests; le.Flak-Abt.91 - 8 aircraft, 2 tanks; a total of 208 aircraft, 13 tanks, 10 bunkers, and 13 machinegun nests.

During the campaign, the 8.8 cm Flak L/56 gained a reputation as being the only weapon capable of penetrating the armor of the heavy French tanks. However, it is obvious that with only nine kills claimed by the Flak units with 8.8 cm Flak L/56, it was not a major factor in defeating French armor as Guderian's XIX.Armee-Korps headed for the English Channel.

Hay que diferenciar 2 cosas en esta última conclusión: los cañones de campaña tenían dificultades para atravesar los blindaje de 40-60mm de los tanques más pesados, por lo que decir que el 88mm era el único que podía penetrarlos - y a largas distancias - era cierto. No debemos olvidar que para poner fuera de combate a un tanque enemigo, no era indispensable penetrarlo. Hubo casos de salir del tanque por miedo a ser aniquilados, dejando al tanque en condiciones operativas. El ejemplo más claro de esto vendría más tarde, durante la Operación Barbarroja, donde se ha reportado el abandono de tanques tras recibir impactos de ametralladoras en el frontal del casco y de la torre.

Saludos

[alejandro_]

En el libro que comentas se afirma que hacían 11 disparos por carro destruido, 23 a larga distancia.

De todas maneras el consumo de munición solía ser altisimo. Cuatro Panther emplearon 28 proyectiles AP y 93 HE para destruir tres (3) T-34 y rechazar la infanteria. Y luego habrá gente que te pone tablas en un polígono con 90% de aciertos y cosas asi.

En Mayo de 1941, el I./Flak Regiment 33 reclamó 79 carros, pero utilizó 1680 proyectiles. Incluso asumiendo el 100% de reclamos se puede ver que no es muy eficiente.

Claro que ésto se debe en gran parte a las características del arma. Normalmente uno de los artilleros tenía que pasar datos del blanco a otro, lo cual no era muy eficiente. En las versiones posteriores (Flak 37) se modificó este proceso.

Como bien dices, el 88mm ganó esa fama por ser el único cañon capaz de destruir algunos carros desde gran distancia, aunque éstos en ocasiones ni siquiera se podían defender debido a falta de munición HE (Matilda Mk2).

Saludos.

[ACB, el Mutie]

En las primeras luchas contra los soviéticos, con el desconocimiento de los tanques T-34 y los tanques de la serie KV, adoptaron nombres iniciales basados en el peso presupuesto. En el caso del T-34, lo identifican como el 32tn, mientras que al KV-2 lo identifican como el 64tn. En ambos casos, el peso es más elevado de lo real.

Me llama la curiosidad que Jentz use las ecuaciones del libro de balística de Livingstone. Dice que el T-34 tenía un blindaje de 135mm a 0º, lo cual es el resultado que sale para la protección de 45mm de acero a 60º de la vertical, frente a un proyectil de 50mm del tipo APCBC o APC.

El KV-2 era un tanque lento, pero bastante resistente como vereis a continuación:

"Panzergranate - range 500 - Feuer" was the fire command for the largest tank. Even this time, it doesn't seem to be bothered when shot at. He wanted to knock us out of action with his 15 cm gun. Shells struck close to the Flak, but our Panzergranate with their tracers went straight into the body of this giant. There, he remains stopped - clearly we see how his left drive wheel is blown off and the track hangs down. However, he kept firing his gun and the Artillerie-Sturmgeschuetz assigned for our close defense, failed us. Now the turret was taken under fire and after several rounds the crew climbed out of the tank. Confused, they ran into fire from our Infanterie. Protected by the heavy tank, a 32 ton tank opened fire on us. However, it went up in flames immediately after our first shot at it. This time the following tanks did not turn orund but tried to reach the road. Just as one showed us his wide side, he received a direct hit. A burst of flame and the blast revealed that the ammunition in this tank was exploding.

Saludos

[ACB, el Mutie]

También hay algún que otro T-34 involucrado en estos combates:

In the interim, another tank had reached the road and was driving fast toward the entrance to the city. His shots were very erratic. He was able to withstand more than three hits, when a shell exploded right under the tank, which was raised up and tipped into the roadside ditch. "The same range" was the next order, and another shot tore into him at exactly the same moment that the crew attempted to bail out.

Es interesante este párrafo. Un T-34 que resistió 3 impactos de un 88mm es algo totalmente increible. Las propias tablas dicen que el Pzgr. penetra 72mm a 30º y 2000m ¿Cómo pudo resistir dicho impacto? Es más, hay otro factor importante a tener en cuenta, un proyectil de 88mm frente a un blindaje de 45mm produce el efecto Overmatching, con lo que la resistencia del T-34 debería haber sido rota. En el libro Panzertruppen hay un par de informes que reflejan como el Tiger I podía penetrar al T-34 a 2000m y en este caso, la distancia es menor. Se detectó al KV-2 a 500m y el T-34 parece ser que no estaba mucho más lejos ¿Suerte quizás?

Saludos

[alejandro_]

Es interesante este párrafo. Un T-34 que resistió 3 impactos de un 88mm es algo totalmente increible. Las propias tablas dicen que el Pzgr. penetra 72mm a 30º y 2000m

Hay muchos factores. Como sabes frente a grandes inclinaciones la penetración baja bastante, y en los tests se asume que el impacto es exactamente de frente, pero ¿Qué ocurre si además hay un ángulo lateral?

Otro factor es que los cañones en el frente sufren mucho más desgaste que en las pruebas, donde suelen ser nuevos.

Saludos.

[ACB, el Mutie]

Como dije ayer, aun con inclinación, si no le impactan en zonas "poco importantes", o en el arco de la nariz que tenía más de 100mm (con una resistencia Brinell de doscientos y poco), no veo como aguantaría un T-34 esos impactos, que fueron a distancias de unos 500m.

Siguiendo con los textos sobre la actuación de los 88mm, el combate anterior no concluyó, sino que siguió:

Two tanks were spotted to our right. The rangefinder had measured the exact range to the curve, and as the monsters reached this position, both went up in bright flames after three shots. As another 52 ton tank came from the right, it was just now clear to uas that the Soviets planned an attack on two sides of the city. But this tank was also knocked out, and 15 minutes after it was hit its ammunition started exploding. In order to more effectively repulse an attack from two sides and to secure the flanks, another 8.8 cm Flak was brought into position. Two enemy tanks wanted to attack our gun from behind without our noticing them. Before they could accomplish this, they ran into the other Flak. After a roadwheel was knocked off, the first tank rapidly turned away but the second tank drove straight at the 8.8 cm Flak. Within only a few seconds after a short fire fight, its fate was sealed. With their clothes burning, two of the crew managed to save themselves and get free.

Saludos

[ACB, el Mutie]

Sigamos con las batallitas.

Combat report on the action of the 2.Batterie/I.Abteilung/Flak-Regiment 701 at Cholm from 2 to 5 September 1941.

[...]

At 1430 hours, Infanterie began to attack out of the forest near Tschista. The attack was energetically supported by 8.8 cm and 2 cm guns and both small and large groups of Russians were suppressed, allowing the attack to gain ground. At first the opponent fired his artillery without apparent plan in the direction of the firing positions, and mortars fired rapidly at both guns. Uffz. Menzel at the 2 cm and Lt. Fuessel, Ogefr. Guckel, and Gefr. Schmidt were lightly wounded by fragments from this fire.

After ther German attack was carried far forward, the Russians sent in tanks. Six tanks that appeared one after the other were taken under fire at ranges of 1500 to 1800 meters of wich one 35 ton tank was halted with track damage. Hits on all of the tanks could be observed, after wich the tanks quickly pulled out of the fight. The long range resulted in several hits richocheting. Russian infantry following the tanks were engaged by the 8.8 cm firing Sprgr.Az. and Zz. and the 2 cm, killing some and causing some to flee. During a pause in the firing, enemy machinegun and mortar fire covered the Flak guns. The second and third 8.8 cm Flak were no longer needed on this day and moved to a rearward position in readiness.

A distancias de 1500-1800m, no tenía mucho sentido usar proyectiles perforantes de 20mm, por lo que lo más probable es que los proyectiles que vieron rebotar, fueran de 88mm. Como sabemos, más adelante, las municiones mejoraron y estos proyectiles dejaron de rebotar contra blindajes tan finos.

Saludos

[ACB, el Mutie]

Seguimos en donde lo habíamos dejado:

After a quiet night, at 0330 hours on 3 September heavy enemy artillery fire started and continued for over an hour. During this time, a 52 ton heavy tank emerged from the woods moving toward the firing positions. Due to the poor light, the tank was allowed to close to about 1500 meters and then fired at with Pzgr. but without any visible result because many ricochets were observed. The tank suddenly pulled into a depression, turned around here, and disappeared out of sight.

Había oído que las municiones alemanas mejoraron bastante en 1942 gracias a un endurecimiento de la punta (64 ROCKWELL) para evitar estos rebotes precisamente. Quizás sea la respuestas a estos casos.

Saludos

[ACB, el Mutie]

Continúa:

About 1400 hours, eight enemy tanks appeared out of the depression in a meadow at a reange of 1200 to 1800 meters. This tank attack pushed our Infanterie almost back to their start line. Under the heaviest enemy fire, this tank attack was beaten back and one 52 ton and one 35 ton tank destroyed. The others panicked and pulled back into the forest. They reappeared at about 1500 hours at about the same range as before at which two 35 ton tanks were hit and caught fire. The rest pulled out of sight and reappeared for the third time at about 1630 hours. This time a 52 ton tank was destroyed at a range of 1300 meters. A 35 ton tank pulled out of sight into a depression and suddenly reappeared to the side of the battery at a range of 150 meters. In threatened the Infanterie lying in an assembly area and the command post near there. This tank was set on fire by short burst fired by the 2 cm Flak. The penetrations were in the tracks and the hull. The crew was burned. Accompanying papers and maps were turned over to the regimental command post.

Un T-34 destruido a base de disparos de 20mm. Impactante.

Saludos